Indeed ALLAH is in control of everything. So heed to His everlasting message for you are not everlasting, nor is the world around you. Islam confirms this, the Holy Quran Confirms such control of ALLAH after being revealed more than 1400 years ago by an illiterate man in the middle of a desert whom people dare curse. What does the Quran Say??
O Rasool! [ messenger ] tell them that your Rabb is the One who has created the universe in six aeons and kept His control over it (10/3). In accordance with His laws, the planets revolve in such a way that day and night succeed each other in quick succession. The sun, moon and other stars also obey His orders. Take note! The domains of Khalq and Amr both belong to Allah, Who is the source of all blessings and Rabb of all the worlds. (7 – 54)
This Book has been revealed by the One in Whose domain everything lies. His Law is in force everywhere in the universe. He needs neither any offspring for help, nor can any one become a partner in His authority. He has created everything in a particular proportion and has determined the measures for its capabilities and potentialities. (These measures are called the 'taqdeer' of these things; and ‘taqdeer’ is the ultimate stage of everything. (25-2)
Brilliance of Islam 
SubhanAllah. My brother and I just talked about this today. We talked about how Allah is the cause. He is in control of everything. Much of high level physics is unexplanatory. It makes no sense, when a device is put ther, the behavior of the electron changes. Crazy. But then we talked about electron orbitals. Niels Bohr’s model of atoms suggests that atoms are in “orbitals” and it’s like they follow a circular path around the nucleus of at atom. Yet, this isn’t true at all. Physicists had to abandon this notion because of the problems associated with it. Apparently, the electron disappears for a minute moment in time and reappears in another position. Why? No one can really explain it. Yet a Muslim would say, because Allah controls all that is in the heavens and earth. Just because we don’t understand it, doesn’t mean its not true. He is the cause of everything and controls even the tiniest things. SubhanAllah.
Hello,
Its about a different perspective. Physics is neither a search for absolute truth, nor it guarantees its followers any sort of enlightenment. We physicists are in a constant effort to find out how well we can explain the world we live, processes our consciousness misses out. This was started over centuries and we ve been documenting the developments. We have no hope this would ever have an end, nor we expect this process to ever end. Then why we do this? we enjoy this. We enjoy this process of better understanding of the world around us. We comprise of non beleivers, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and any other possible religion in the world. We are a group of people who chose not to sit back in sheer awe and attribute it all to the devine power. Yes we can”t explain the finest details of the world. We will be dumbstruck at that point. The difference is till there we had several answers and explanations, but all the while you had only one answer.
I am sorry for the intrusion, i don”t know i am welcome here. But i thought we had some common understanding( physics) to start the discussion.
Greetings,
You don’t need to apologize :), as your thoughts are welcome here. Being a student of Physics and Neuroscience myself, and a former Agnostic Atheist who has returned to Islam, I’d just like to comment on a few of your points. Namely, this one:
“We are a group of people who chose not to sit back in sheer awe and attribute it all to the devine power.” And, “The difference is till there we had several answers and explanations, but all the while you had only one answer.”
I think it’s crucial to understand that the Qur’an is a Glorious Book which points the reader (not just Muslim) to reflect and ponder. It enjoins contemplation, and scratching the surface of a matter. This is because it asserts that many “hidden” truths can be accessed through such contemplation. Consequently, it encourages scientific investigation.
It was this attitude enjoined by the Qur’an, and reinforced by the Prophet Muhammad (p) who urged Muslims to seek knowledge even if it meant going to China, which inspired Medieval Muslim scholars to become polymaths. You have Ibn Sina who’s Cannon of Medicine was relied upon by Europe for centuries. You also had Philosophers who were also Scientists such as Jābir ibn Hayyān.
Thus, Islam does not seek to prevent investigation. On the contrary, it enjoins us to embrace it. However, through rational investigation we come to the conclusion that the Highest Truth or Reality (Al-Haqq) is Allah (God). He is the Power behind all functions and processes in the universe. Here, it needs to be understood that Physics along with Science in general doesn’t provide concrete answers to “why”, but rather only to “how”.
By this, I mean that science cannot and will not be able to identify a material basis for reality. Beyond the Big Bang, at t = 0, all the known laws of Physics fall apart. Even if the quantum vacuum is the origin of this universe – what explains it? Modern cosmology shows that the universe had a definite past. It also shows that the quantum vacuum involves time, which means it could not be infinite and eternal for philosophical and scientific reasons.
Take care!
i just came across this discussion and hope it is not too late to share some points. i agree that physics is a very interesting subject as it unveils our world down to the fundalmental particles. we learn what is happening in the world at the most basic level. amazing great finds make us wonder and become bewildered at this awesome world. creationists see all this as the manifestation of the omniscient omnipotent amnipresent creator. it also interprets a lot of messages from the books of Allah. Furthermore, some quantum mechanics findings today were described by scholars long time ago. as we can read about the probability theory in the discussions of mumkinats.the ide of light energy as the basic foundations of universe (all existence) is not foreign in Islamic circle.please write me mmdabii@yahoo.com
exactly. Allah is always undeniable.
yo man! where do you more videos like that, i learned a lot, i wish they had this for every subject!
Wow, nice video. Where do you get this stuff? Innallaha bi kulli shayin ‘aleem.
I’m sorry, With all this subhanallah and bismillah and salah,rasool…etc, I missed the part where the Quantum Slit theory links to a Violent Quasi-Religious Ideology like Islam or or any other Religion for that matter. If you wanted to show a movie that proves Allah’s existence and the correlate it to the quran why don’t you you use the video of the beheading of Nicholas Berg or Eugene Armstrong? I believe they have a much closer relationship to true Islam as taught by Mohd than any movie about Science…But hey, it gives us Kuffrs a chuckle to watch these desperate attempts to legitimize your Cult. I should go to the Thuggee Cult’s Blog now and see if they are linking to this movie as well.
In the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit Amen,
Crusader
You missed the part where developments in modern science confirm the Islamic worldview primarily because you’ve been too busy with your bigoted and prejudiced agenda. Also, I’m skeptical about whether or not you’ve taken any advanced science courses.
You – like the typical online Islamophobe, have been unable to take your study of Islam beyond political rhetoric. I urge you to study the philosophical foundations of Islam and let go of the political rhetoric which has no real connection to Islam. Please provide some evidence to justify your assertions (i.e. Islam generally teaches Muslims to behead non-Muslims).
Allah has discussed all the laws of physics in his Holy book QURAN.. we believe on Allah the most mercifull. the theories of physics that have yet proved by any of the christian or any other is just for thier belief that there is some one who control the whole universe by its string.
sigh…
The Quran starts off in a sequence. In the first few pages ALLAH tells us about the people who will heed to this message, and those who will stutter at it, and those who will reject it. The statement by the crusader above is only proving the Haqq (truth), that his statements are of falsehood, his doctrine is of falsehood, and his ideologies, if i’m not mistaken is of falsehood.
May ALLAH make us who heed his Mu’mineen. May ALLAH make those who are relunctant, accept. May ALLAH make those who reject Heed. And May ALLAH spread his blessings all around the world, for truly we are all in need of His Blessings. Ameen.
Listen, science does not provide evidence for religion. Any religion. Religion is a way of finding answers to things we don’t understand. Once people become comfortable with the fact that they don’t know everything (or much at all, really) and embrace their mortality and the transient nature of our existence, religion ceases to have such a pressing hold.
Science is the testing of hypotheses against measurable reality – do some reading on the concept of “falsifiability” if you really want to understand the logic behind it.
Religion is a tool for plugging gaps in our knowledge. It explains precisely NOTHING. Perhaps the most potent reason for belief is the fear of death – we don’t know what comes next, so we’re afraid. But imagine if you could accept that after death, you will simply cease to exist. This used to be the most frightening thought I could conceive of. Now it informs the decisions I make in life.
You only have one life. There is nothing waiting for anyone on the other side of death. Make the most of this one.
I urge you to study the philosophical foundations of Islam, as you seem to have not studied them. For instance, your post generalizes all religions without providing a shred of reasoning for doing so. Further, you presuppose that empiricism has a monopoly on truth and so you restrict whatever truths are accessible to you.
How would you respond to rationalists who would not hesitate to critique the narrowness of your philosophical position (no offense intended). You mention logic in conjunction with falsifiability. Precisely – science presupposes logical and mathematical truths without which, it would not exist. The Islamic proofs for the existence of God rely on logic as well.
Religion CAN be a tool for ignorance, and CAN exist by merit of gaps in our knowledge. However, Islam has never taken the approach of the “God of the Gaps Arguments”. Also, you’re going to need to justify why you continue to group all religions together. Clearly, Islam’s attitude towards reason and logic is drastically different from Christianity’s. Further, you speculate on the possible reasons for belief. Yet, this does nothing to show that it has no basis. One can be afraid of what comes after death, and still have logical reasons for believing. The two are not contradictory.
The Muslim makes informed choices because they realize that there is an objective purpose, objective morality, and objective meaning to this existence. We are not merely material rearrangements of molecules that undergo complex reactions and processes which give rise to profound thoughts and emotions.
Please – open your mind beyond the generalizations so often made, and study the philosophical foundations of Islam. You will be impressed. 😀
“They say,’There is nothing but our existence in the world.We die and we live and nothing destroys us except for time.’They have no knowledge of that.They r only conjecturing.”(sura al Jathia:23-24)
“He makes likenesses of Us and forgets his own creaton,saying,’Who will give life to bones when they r decayed?’
Say’He who made them in first place will bring them back to life.He has total knowledge of each created thing’ (Sura yasin:78-79) brother,have u ever heard azan?listen Azan carefully…wht does it say
Oh, and I have nothing specifically against Islam. I hold all religions equally erroneous. The person who commented above – Crusader – displays an ignorance, insensitivity and egotism which is worthy of little other than contempt.
Religion, any religion for that matter, is not there to teach us science or reveal all the secrets of life, matter, space etc. Religion, if it may, will just guide one towards uncovering the truth.
The real purpose of a religion, is to guide the humans towards the bigger truth. The mighty creator, where all science eventually leads to. The basic laws of life and living are given, and for the believers certain duties and prohibitions are laid to test the belief and prevent from harm.
Islam doesnt believe in god for the sake of answering difficult questions. Islams commands the followers to look around in the world and find the proof of god’s existence for themselves, To gain knowledge from one who is more knowledgeable, to teach the knowledge one has etc.
God in islam has a very small definition, only 4 lines, :
1. God is One (Just One, with no support or company)
2. He is Absolute and Eternal (Absolute in a complete sense, no matter concept, Eternal – there is no time concept, as in our world)
3. He begets nor is he begotten (there is no reproductive mechanism as we have learnt to be utmost necessary)
4. There is no likeness unto him (nothing that we can ever imagine is like him, even the word “him” as we use in common lingo doesn’t do justice to the concept)
Atheist or any body else, this 4 line def. is what some call the litmus test. Keeping all your atheist beliefs, if one day you “had” to believe in god, what kind of charasteristics would you attach to that god. I am sure you would include all of the 4 above, and I believe that those 4 lines are exhaustive enough, but if you may do add some more, and we can debate to their validity.
We believe in GOD, or ALLAH as we prefer to call in arabic, or the other 99 names, basically we believe in the above 4 line concept of the allmighty, owner of us all, our sustainer.
Belief is one thing, proving another…
When I belief something I don’t need proof. Even worse, if proof exists that my belief is false, I will resist. If proof exists that my belief is true, it will probably not be true in the way I belief it.
But all in all, I wonder about this:
“No-one will believe me, but I speak the truth. I saw god and she was a thousand eyed monster. She said this was her true form.” If you wish to deny the truth of the last two sentences I can allways state: “See, you don’t believe me” and with this I can cast of any disbelieve.
My question to you, Sandandrocks, if appropriate, how is this different from what “TalkIslam” said :
“The Quran starts off in a sequence. In the first few pages ALLAH tells us about the people who will heed to this message, and those who will stutter at it, and those who will reject it. The statement by the crusader above is only proving the Haqq (truth), that his statements are of falsehood, his doctrine is of falsehood, and his ideologies, if i’m not mistaken is of falsehood.”
this is one of the best ways to show that Islam is RAHMATAN LIL ALAMIN. I very respect to this. thank you. wassalam alaikum….
Sara Bareilles – Love Song
Sara Bareilles – Love Song
Wow. I am watching videos of Quantum physics on youtube.. and things just kept clicking about it.. Things I learned in Islam.. and I was like wow.. I wonder if anyone else thinks like this.. and ahaha I found this site! Amazing stuff. Mashallah!
Did anybody every changed the word “god” or “allah” to energy to see for another meening ?
This fits more into a pantheistic or panentheistic concept (more into Hinduism). In Islam, we do not say that Allah is energy. He never described Himself as energy explicitly. Instead, we say that He is the only Necessary Existent.
Dear All,
For people who say that “science does not provide evidence for religion” please refer to the following in greater depth than is stated here:
1) And the heaven and the “Knocker” (Tarek in Arabic) 2 How could you know about the “Knocker”? 3 The piercing star (Thakeb in Arabic). (Quran 86, 1-3)
This verse describes a pulsar, with the piercing referring to the piercing of the darkness of space with its characteristic brightness.
2) “HE has let free The two bodies Of flowing water, Meeting together: Between them is a Barrier Which they do not transgress.” (Quran 55, 19-20) and again at
“”And made a separating bar Between the two bodies Of flowing water?” AL-QUR’AN 27:61 and yet again! at 25:53!
Both these verses refer to the oceanographic phenomenon confirmed by many oceanologists
3) “Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it” …. “And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.” (Quran, 24:43)
This is one example of meteorology in Quran, indeed a cloud becomes electrified as hail falls through a region in the cloud of supercooled droplets and ice crystals. Furthermore these clouds are normally miles long, indeed like mountains.
4) The Quran gives many important ratios which have only recently been confirmed:
i) The word sea (bahr) is used 32 times in the Quran. The word bahr is used both for the sea and other waters like lakes and rivers. The word land (barr, yabas) is used 13 times. If we calculate the ratio of 32 to 45 the result is 71.111%.
You may look up in any encyclopedia in the world and see that the sea cover 71% of the earth whereas the land covers 29% of it. It is really an interesting miracle that scientific and the Quranic ratios of the lands to the seas are the same.
ii) As the iron’s atomic number is encoded in the sura that mentions iron, there is also a sign in that sura about the iron’s isotopes.
1. The word “el hadid” which means a particular iron has a mathematical value of 57. The article “el” corresponds to “the” in English. When the word hadid is used with the article “el”, referring to a specific iron, the mathematical value turns out to be 57.
Alif = 1
Lam = 30
Ha = 8
Da = 4
Ya = 10
Da = 4
Total = 57
2. The sura Iron (hadid) is the 57th sura of the Quran. And 57 is one of the isotopes of iron.
3. The sura Iron (hadid) is the 58th sura from the end of the Quran. That is another isotope of iron.
4. This sura has 29 numbered verses. This number becomes 30 when the unnumbered Basmalah is counted. This number is equal to the neutron numbers of two isotopes of iron, from the total of four. The frequency of the word God in this sura gives the neutron number of the other isotope.
iii) Further more the age of the universe according to modern science is estimated to be about 13.7 billion years whereas the age of the Earth is estimated to be about 4.5 billion years. In the Quran Allah talks about creating the Heavens (Universe) in 6 days and creating the Earth in 2 days, both ratios 4.5/13.7 and 2/6 yield .33, remember science is not a 100% sure of its numbers so this is still a very good estimate, after all 1/3 is accepted to be 0.33 but it doesn’t really stand the test of algebra too adequately does it?
And since I like odd numbers, one more:
5) “No indeed! If he does not stop, We will grab him by the forelock, a lying, sinful forelock.” (Qur’an, 96:15-16)
According to modern science, this brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behaviors, personality expression, and moderating correct social behavior. The basic activity of this brain region is considered to be orchestration of thoughts and actions in accordance with internal goals. It’s also believed to be the functional centre for agression (which normally results from a delusion we convince ourselves of – a lie we tell to justify our ideas and action). This prefrontal cerebrum is located in the area behind your forehead and forelock.
Anyhow even one instance of foresight as prescient as this would be enough for me, or perhaps the myriad of tiny miracles I have experienced in my life, or perhaps the beautiful symmetries which unfold before my eyes everyday in my advanced math classes. Whether you believe or not is not up to me. Peace to Everyone!
Thankyou fore educating me such wonderful ratios and numbers. But still science doesnot prove religion. Its not the prrof its just some scientifics facts seen in the religious scriptures( if you look at it that way). Being the youngest religion it is expected.
What ever U have posted gives a narration of somebodies encryption of certain figures in the verses. ( Do we agree it was written by sombody)
But finally why would religion need a vindication of science
Were these scientific facts known during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (p) 1400 years ago? Furthermore, if you want to see if the Qur’an was a man-made book or not, visit this link (to see all the compelling arguments for its miraculous nature):
http://www.theinimitablequran.com/
I think a better way to look at it is whether one’s religion is harmonious with science. For example, if my religion said that the earth has 2 suns and 3 moons, I might want to rethink things.
That Islam is harmonious with science, does not necessarily ‘prove’ that Islam is true, but it is certainly evidence that it is not false.
Its arite people, the kufr are planing but so is allah and we all know who is the best planner.
this quantum phisics is really staring to hit home, i think all the brothers and sisters should further there knowledge on islaam and science and try to comrehend the true meaning to existance.
In reply to:
You only have one life. There is nothing waiting for anyone on the other side of death. Make the most of this one.
By Atheist.
The fact is that this is only the first step of existance and most probably the shortest (compared to eternity in hell or paradise) Death is a gift to the true muslim as it frees him/her from this “place”.
This world is like dust blowing in the wind compared to the next life, so what is the most u can make of dust?
We were not put here to have fun, we were put here to praise allah and worship him alone. so that coment about no one waiting for us after death is going to bring u severe torment.
well i hope insha allah that you see otherwise. If not then ull find out as soon as you meet the angel of death because he does get a bit violent sometimes.
Bullshit! get a life you islamic liers!
Take some time to read and find out Islam with out having a bias tendency with what perception you might have from Muslim. It is better that way then replying comment base from short statement you read. Truth goes deeper then just ‘fact’ and ‘reason’. If you still find Islam has no real answers towards what ever question you might have then at less you are not ‘naive’ in knowing the religion. – If perception was use to judge my understanding of what I think American people are, then I might as well be saying that they are ‘just a bunch of bigheaded people trying to impose their American culture to the rest of the world’.
what a weak, ignorant comment by Uselessmailer, if islam is lying prove it, study the quaran and use our own book against us if u can, i very much doubt that u can. What ever u believe in at least be productive and enlighten us with wat u know…
insecure kaffir, says this
forgot to say, one thing they teach us in school is that if u make a statement back it up with evidence.
I agree. There sure is alot of haters out there but neverless the truth is the truth. Islam is the truth and the Quran is the proof. Thats why it can never get bashed to the extent all you can say is “bullshit”.
We all are capable even uselessmailer. How about we all put things into consideration regarding islam, science and anything else we have in mind and seek the truth in a honest and best manner. I am muslim and proud but not ignorant regarding others views.
Mashallah,
I love appreciating science, especially physics, because it makes me love my Creator, Allah (swt), who created all of this magnificence.
Islam in no doubt the religion of truth. Science particularly physics has additionally proven beyond doubts for the doubtful minds. O man, submit to the creator(Allah) and you shall succeed.
Allah is one.He asks us to believe in Him,worship Him,obey Him,honour our parents and do good unto them,He also commands us to help the wayfarer and be good to those who need our help.in short,islam is a good religion with a good,loving and just God-AllaH!WHY WOULD ANYONE BE AGAINST SUCH A RELIGION?think twice my brothers.
There was beautiful presentation in the form of slideshow showing the Calculation of speed of light from the verses of quran long long ago iam looking for that can it be possilbe
Hello , and peace to Everyone .
I have come to the conclusion , that the true nature of Reality is not physical but spiritual , this can also can be stated in Physics terms .
I will make further posts , in due course.
Kindest Regards,
Tony
Hello and peace to everyone ,
The above flahs video does Not seem to play , Apparently it has been removed , can anyone let me know where i can watch it else where . I really wanna see the video.
Thanks , and Kindest Regards,
Someone asked:
Did anybody every changed the word “god” or “allah” to energy to see for another meening ?
The Quran states: “Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth….” (24:35)
Light is energy. I’m not saying we limit the meaning of Allah to energy, but if He called himself ‘Light’ or ‘Noor’ in Arabic, it must mean something…
I’d have to see the meaning of the verse in arabic and a Qur’anic Tafsir explaining it’s interpretation. Did Allah speak literally in this verse, or is this a metaphorical figure of speech? There are rules of interpretation that Scholars of Qur’anic Exegesis must learn before interpreting verses. Interesting idea though.
Now of course, in Islam we do not maintain that Allah is an anthropomorphic body (astagfurillah!) These Atheists often generalize and perceive God as an invisible man up in the sky. We do not perceive God as a body limited to a location in space. He transcends all of this. To think of Him as a finite body, in finite space and time is illogical, and haraam.
Does anyone have the above video , another link , please someone help me! I need to watch that video .
Thanks
Islam is a religion that, i feel, can be closely related to science. Allah exists but we can’t see him…why? Science and Quantum Physics can explain this. The complexity of this universe, the planets, the matter, atoms, particles, and space make up not only this universe but other universes that are yet to be discovered. Allah has made this complex world so that there are scientific explanations to all supernatural and “magical” events that may occur in this world. For those shia ismailis who believe in the imams, who believe in the Aga Khan, Allah has provided answers for these imams and their relation with Allah. The fact that the imams are unlike any normal human can be seen through the existence of quantum physics. It’s not supernatural powers that make them so different and more capable than humans; its the level of understanding of quantum physics and the understanding of this world and the reasons for the complexity of it’s creation that makes them so special. Humans like you and I, however, are yet to unfold the secrets of quantum physics and live up to understand such a complex subject. There are so many distractions on this earth, it becomes very difficult to reach a final conclusion about the connection between islam and quantum physics. Insha’allah, this connection will be clarified as the world goes on and as more research is conducted on this topic.
Excellent reasoning! I think in simplest terms, one should not expect to be able to “see” Allah. Why? He is the Necessary Existent (i.e. His existence is Necessary). Everything else that exists is only possible in existence. This means it has the potential to exist, but is not needed. If at one point something did not exist, and then begins to exist, surely it’s existence isn’t necessary (otherwise why would it not have always existed).
The same is true for something whose existence can end. As such, everything that is material (i.e. has a specific shape, properties etc) needed to be specified (since there are multiple possibilities to the forms of things). Also, the material had a finite past, and so needed to have been brought into existence. If whatever created the material was itself material we’d be in a problem (if the material needs a Creator, the Creator can’t be material Himself otherwise He’d need a Creator too).
Also, Allah exists beyond the material, which means when there was no material existence, Allah still existed, so clearly He is not material (note: Allah’s relationship to time needs to be approached very carefully, as it is not sequential like our experience is).
Could somebody explain what the video actually stated? Since it is no longer on YouTube, it would be nice if some of the people who saw it could explain what was in it, and how it helped to confirm Islam.
If Anyone has a copy of the video please , send me a link to download it … I really would like to see it , I’m sure somneone copied it and has it on their PC,it would be nice so we can watch it .
Thanks
Hi Tony,
I believe what you looking for is part of ‘What the bleep do we know’.
Hope you find what you are looking for.
The immense power of Islam has deeply touched our world, & is still having such a huge magnetic pull on so many millions of people. I pray that one day everyone who loves Allah (God) gets the chance to experience this magic. To be a part of many millions united in our love to Allah, & to connect our hearts with so many other hearts, to ask forgiveness, to drown in the river of millions of tears, and to be reborn in a new existence as we walk, eat & pray as one. May Allah bless us with this chance that exemplifies the beauty of Islam because it resonates an inner experience so strong that it heightens our life in a way that makes everything more meaningful.
…This Day, I (Allah) have perfected your deen ( comprehensive system) & completed My favour upon you, & have chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life.
Holy Quran, sura al-maida, chapter 5 verse 3
Life is a journey not a destination
MAY be other religion can fight against Islam.but all the non believers will see that islam is only truth. And I am nt rejecting any religion, islam is the best, islam shows what is right. and no-one can be against it, no one can be against allah , even non-believers,will believe in allah. evry religion will praise islam. I dont want any feedback.this is true,the perfect, and special note for all non believers, science is just a testing of quranic concepts.and not quranic concepts are proven by science, almost 80%. I never forces people to convert your religion to islam, but this could be best.nt bcoz i am a muslim, but I feel the divine power of allah ,that made for all non-believers not to stick to convictions.there is no need of proof for existence of allah.he is one.and just see the universe around, therois around, yet no theories have bcome most comprehensible with quran.trust in allah -almighty,because he exists.DIVINE POWER.
i just hate other religion criticising islam,that should nt be done, not that this religion should be called liars,there cn be , but not all muslims,dont use unneccesary language or discourage muslims in their belief in allah.
If u cant comprehend the infiniteness of allah , how can you comprehend the infiniteness of creator if you cant divide infinity into 2/3, how can you believe in his trinity/? where is all mathematcians,scientists in his oneness.
pls nt: other religions might not know islam well, so does the non-believers.you may feel to argue, but therse is no point,you will recognize,and please dont blabber over facts on islam which you dont know.
speak what is right.
reffering to marks comment.you have said, allah is light. yeah tthts rite.light is energy.but allah is not reduced to state of light.he is force,the singularity.absolute extreme absolute force, and not like ordinary forces.u gt me? believe it.
regards
Hanaan
Can someone please explain the connection of this video and Islam?
Best informations, thanks…
I’m glad to see the video is finally back. It’s very interesting. I am a Muslim, but I can’t see a direct connection between this video and Islam either.
Perhaps someone could explain in detail why this phenomenon (electrons behaving as waves and as particles) proves Islam, it would be very helpful.
It proves Islam because the electrons behave differently when carefully observed. It simply shows that Allah is in control of everything and maybe He doesnt want man to know some very Deep Secret and Wisdom of the Universe.
Quantum Physics have also proven that everything in this world is an illusion which coincidently it means Duniawi which is the Arabic term that Allah describes this world. It also proves a parallel universe which means there is another world similar like this – the Hereafter – but much much more real and beyond your wildest imagination.
study bhagbat gita there also lord krishna says the world is an illusion.so what ur islam telling a new thing.just that. “old wine in new bottle”
I personally believe that Allah sent Prophet(s) (p) to the ancient Aryans. However, to be honest I think that their teachings were eventually corrupted and lost. This happened over and over again, until Allah finally revealed the culmination of this essential Truth (Islam) to the Prophet Muhammad (p). It has henceforth remained preserved and pure.
For the best academic article (not propagation) on quantum physic is the one entitled: “Interface With Islam” by Navid Masud. RECENT DEVELOPMENTS IN QUANTUM PHYSICS HAVE PROFOUND IMPLICATIONS FOR OUR UNDERSTANDING OF RELIGION: … It is interesting to see how Islamists are making claim to a kind of physics that is as ancient as the big bang to prop up their religion. The first mention of quantum theory is in the ancient scriptures of the Vedas(not to be confused with hinduism). The mention of: “atma” – meaning atom ( a reference to the soul/self) ; maya (illusion).
I feel quite heartened that muslims are looking outward for answers. No ONE book or text has ALL the answers. There is only ONE God and he/she/it does not favour any particular religion, race, group or language. If that is the case, then only muslims, jews, christians, hindus will procreate and the others will die out. The worst blasphemy is that some very powerful theocrats are speaking on behalf of God and instead of spreading LOVE they are spreading HATE and causing bloodshed throughout the globe.
All peace-loving people from all faiths should shun and speak out publicly against denegration of other faiths. This is one of the greatest challenges facing humankind in the modern world. We are ALL part of the matrix within this quantum physical world, and just like a spider’s web, any damage to any part, affects the rest of the matrix.
Fellow traveller
Arron
To be stated here after Mikes’comment,:
you should know this Allah is nt limited to the meaning of light.He is a light upon light.It clearly describes in Quran about Who Allah is.According to Surah Nooh it states tht Allah is the Lights of Heaven and Earth.nt exactly reduced to the meaning of light That we see or we know.The parable of his light is as if there were a Niche and within it a lamp.The lamp enclosed in a glass,the glass as it were a brilliant star,lit from a blessed tree,an Olive neither of the West nor of the East,whose oil is well nigh illuminios,though fire scarce touched it.
Light upon Light!!!!!
Allah doth guide whom he will to His light
Allah doth set forth parables for his men
And Allah doth know all the things for he is all-knowing and wise
I hope this information is needed,because this again has a lot of explanations.
are you Hannan Bint Hashim from India, (Calicut, Kerala State).
I really love this post. In fact I will start eduacting people on it. Islam is real, practical and eternal.
Really nice 🙂
gud luck …allah bless u always..Educate non-believrs..and you are going to blessed by allah for sure..Insha allah
Who is still in doubt about the eligion os PEACE, peace in all aspect of human life till it finally got to SCIENCE (which is our new direction).
love Islam and its reality, accept truth and live happily
Perfect!!!..Gud luck to you bro!!
interesting. Please explain fully what is “reality” according to islam?
Arron
1 The Reality!
2
What is the Reality ?
3
Ah, what will convey unto thee what the reality is!
4
(The tribes of) Thamud and A’ad disbelieved in the judgment to come.
5
As for Thamud, they were destroyed by the lightning.
6
And as for A’ad, they were destroyed by a fierce roaring wind,
7
Which He imposed on them for seven long nights and eight long days so that thou mightest have seen men lying overthrown, as they were hollow trunks of palm- trees.
8
Canst thou (O Muhammad) see any remnant of them ?
9
And Pharaoh and those before him, and the communities that were destroyed, brought error,
10
And they disobeyed the messenger of their Lord, therefor did He grip them with a tightening grip.
11
Lo! when the waters rose, We carried you upon the ship
12
That We might make it a memorial for you, and that remembering ears (that heard the story) might remember.
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And when the trumpet shall sound one blast
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And the earth with the mountains shall be lifted up and crushed with one crash,
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Then, on that day will the Event befall.
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And the heaven will split asunder, for that day it will be frail.
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And the angels will be on the sides thereof, and eight will uphold the Throne of thy Lord that day, above them.
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On that day ye will be exposed; not a secret of you will be hidden.
19
Then, as for him who is given his record in his right hand, he will say: Take, read my book!
20
Surely I knew that I should have to meet my reckoning.
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Then he will be in blissful state
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In a high garden
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Whereof the clusters are in easy reach.
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(And it will be said unto those therein): Eat and drink at ease for that which ye sent on before you in past days.
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But as for him who is given his record in his left hand, he will say: Oh, would that I had not been given my book
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And knew not what my reckoning!
27
Oh, would that it had been death!
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My wealth hath not availed me, 29
My power hath gone from me.
30
(It will be said): Take him and fetter him
31
And then expose him to hell-fire
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And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits.
33
Lo! He used not to believe in Allah the Tremendous,
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And urged not on the feeding of the wretched.
35
Therefor hath he no lover here this day,
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Nor any food save filth
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Which none but sinners eat.
38
But nay! I swear by all that ye see
39
And all that ye see not
40
That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger.
41
It is not poet’s speech – little is it that ye believe!
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Nor diviner’s speech – little is it that ye remember!
43
It is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds.
44
And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,
45
We assuredly had taken him by the right hand
46
And then severed his life-artery,
47
And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
48
And lo! it is a warrant unto those who ward off (evil).
49
And lo! We know that some among you will deny (it).
50
And lo! it is indeed an anguish for the disbelievers.
51
And lo! it is absolute truth.
52
So glorify the name of thy Tremendous Lord.
In reply to Qutub
I was expecting more than a direct quote from a holy book. The extract is very poetic. My mind interprets this piece, I’m sure, very differently from yours. All I imagine is terror, fear, retribution, immense power, darkness, destruction and death. These images are not unfamiliar in my earthly existence. Faith in God is based on the belief of the unknown. The hypothesis of one’s belief will truly be revealed only when one is completely dead and unfortunately, the individual will never be able share this knowledge with anyone else. The extract you have quoted has not enlightened me in anyway as to the understanding of reality as espoused by Islam. The fact that I may have interpreted the extract differently from you or anyone else may help to answer the question of “reality”. Is the world outside of our brain, mind, imagination, perception, intellect and consciousness real or does reality exist there?
Arron
Fellow traveller
Read Holy Quran, chapter AL NOOR and you will definitely agree with Quantum Physics and Islam.
CHAPTER NOOR :
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
Qutubuddin – December 13, 2009 at 5:18 am
Reply
Aaron,
I think I might have the explanation you’re looking for. In the Quran, Allah describes His creation:
He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. High be He exalted above all that they associate (with Him).
He hath created man from a drop of fluid, yet behold! he is an open opponent.
(Quran chapter 16, verses 3 – 4)
So we human beings are but a part of God’s creation, and it has been created with Truth.
Assuredly the creation of the heavens and the earth is greater than the creation of mankind; but most of mankind know not. (Quran chapter 40, verse 57)
Here the Quran confirms that the Heavens and Earth (i.e. the material universe) is greater than us humans. My understanding (and Allah knows best) is that it is at least as real , and possibly more real than our perceptions.
The chapter quoted above is one entitled “The Reality” or Al-Haqqa in Arabic. It emphasizes the existence of Allah’s punishment both in this world and the hereafter. While this is an important part of our faith, it is not the only part. I hope you don’t take it out of context.
Here is another verse (which also should be understood in context), but may challenge many peoples pre-conceptions about Islam…
Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
(Quran chapter 2, verse 62)
I am against Hanaan Bint Hashim,can you please tell me what is ordinery force? what is the difference between ordinery and extra ordinery force? what is the root cause of the ordinery or extra ordinery force? how could you recognize that a force is ordinery or extra ordinery?if a force may cause of a strong imact what happen to the force?if a foce split what happense to it?
Dear hannan also please tell me what is light upon light?do you think that a light have an end ?okay supose if you switch on a torch you can see light waves are coming out from the torch?tell me is this waves are created by filament of the bulb and is this wave is going to end somewhere?you are talking about absolute zero tell what happens to this light waves after some meeter of its path? ia m sure you cannot answer… this light waves is not going to end this is traveling thousands of kilomeeter and during this travel it may attracted by other force like stat or sunlight and it becomes the part of it (because any kind of waves having positive or negative energy thats why this is coming out from the filament )…okay then you may ask me why this light (light waves)cannot see after some time….okay please answer me if you can?
Hannan answer me is the sun light is different from the torch light ? if your answer is yes? prove?
In a very logical and common sense way,
this goes out for those who say science is seperated/has nothing to do with religion and God….
Existence did not pop out by itself, it (existence itself) must have been been brought into creation by something/someone/somehow… and the upper most limit has to be indeed very Great and powerful, which is the ultimate being and creator of everything that exists, God.
With this being said, the most complex and perfect existing being is the mind itself… the human mind is above all other creatures and things that exists, that was created by our one and only creator… the complexity of the mind is how the notion of knowledge and science has come to be.
It is the human mind that makes science make sense. The logical and complex thoughts and intelligence the human mind has, has brought science to where it stands today. Mathematics, philosophy, quantum physics, the human body in terms of medicine is carefully and accurately explained by the human mind in a logical and comprehensible way.
Now, coming to my final point; How can science be seperated from God, when God created the human mind in the first place..? It does not make any sense at all to say that science has nothing to do with religion and God, because throughout history and the great religions have God given us clues and statements about truths that NO-ONE can deny. There is no way of disproving the words of God, those that have attempted to do so have failed.
And if we want to look at this from a mathematical point of view, the probability of Gods existence have been PROVEN to be favorable for Gods existence rather than not.
So the conclusion here is that God created the human being, the human mind, the universe itself… Human minds developed science.. ergo, by simple deductive reasoning, God must have created science beforehand for us humans to discover it and witness the truth of the universe and the truth of his existence.
This is how it makes so perfect sense to me that everything exists and is created by God, the Greatest.
Hi ali,
U might be against me..People will be against Islam..not all but,There are things which couldnt express..U know u r talking abt a force and extra-ordinary force..diffference.What is all this upto..doesnt make a sense..But trust me..force is not an end..light is nt an end too..This is what u cant express in reality..Tell me ,have u found any theory which is perfectly fit?answer is no…U cant..u wont..bcoz this universe is constantly having a change.
Coming to ur questions :
1) How will an explosion like Big bang occur if there is no extra ordinary force acting on it..How can that cause rise to millions of universe..If it was an ordinary force acting on it..do u think universe is going to born Perfectly and strictly not.
There you go wrong..u cant compare allahs light to torch or sun light..extra ordinary light which I am talking about..
a force is a push or pull acting on a body..what makes it differnt from super force or extra ordinary force is the reality of Universe..
We dont realize the fact bcoz we hardly knew about it in expressing it in physics..there will be an end for physics..so trust me…there will be an end for all physics terms and concepts too.that surely makes a sense.
In my absolute theory of zero,I never explained about a torch light.there is where all go wrong.I am talking about that has already taken in past..I am not anyone wrong..even Einstein..AS for my side…his experiments are treated as the biggest ever.But u see..in macro level this wont happen..
light upon light is allahs light..and u dont know what it is..people doesnt know…I even dont know…so does the great scientist..Astrophysics reached a barrier where it could explain..in physics terms…but till that reach a barrier that has way to go..but all this is going to be an end..
U need sumthng totally away from Physics..which explains this ,still Its hard to find a perfect..for Allah knows everything..
U should make sense,I cant be perfect in my theory..and even no can be..there will be drawbacks in my theory as I accept it as part of reality.
nd I agree to u perfectly for this word of urs.
Human minds developed science.. ergo, by simple deductive reasoning, God must have created science beforehand for us humans to discover it and witness the truth of the universe and the truth of his existence.
This is how it makes so perfect sense to me that everything exists and is created by God, the Greatest.
that really makes sense …and thats gud view of point..
REgards
Hanaan
Read Holy Quran, chapter AL NOOR and you will definitely agree with Quantum Physics and Islam.
CHAPTER NOOR :
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
Xactly !! Suratul Noor is the best chapter that fits for Quantum and light
My response is given below.
Hafiz – What????? The video proves Islam because electrons behave differently when observed, and because Allah wants to keep somethings secret? Can you please elaborate more? I do not see any connections.
Hannan Binth Hashim – I cannot make any sense out of your writings. You don’t add anything more by saying God is light of light, and not the same as torch light, etc., if you simply say that God is energy. Just because we do not have a complete theory to explain everything in the universe does not mean there is a God, or Islam is the true religion. One can believe in a religion, and try to show that science does not contradict religious doctrines – that is as far as you can go with science. You cannot use science as a tool to prove God, or any religion. Belief in God and in religion is just a belief – that is why it is called faith. Religion deals with the moral aspects, science deals with physical aspects – their domains are different.
When you say Allah knows everything, you are bringing a lot of problems for you to deal with. For example did Allah knew there is going to be a tsunami in 2005 December? That was a natural disaster, not human made disaster. If He knew that nature is going to create a tsunami, why didn’t He (or She) warn the people rather than allowing them to perish in such a cruel way? Or are you going to say that all those perished are wicked people (many of them were Muslims from Indonesia)? Or are you going to say Allah does not care about people? You will get into big problems. How much God knows is a highly debatable topic.
We are told God can do anything. If you have taken philosophy questions, you would have faced questions like, can God destroy himself? Can God create a stone so big that He Himself cannot lift it? etc. If He can do anything, can He do these things? Concept of God is not that easy to describe. Light up on light does not tell us anything.
For the first cause argument, that everything is created by God, raises the question, how God Himself came to exist. You cannot simply answer that He is God, therefore He exists – that almost is a circular argument. This so called ontological argument has been debated for a very long time, starting with Anselm and David Hume, and no conclusion has been reached on the ontological question. I have no objection in you saying that I believe in God and I belong to this religion. But when you try to justify that with your absolute theory of zero, you will sure get into trouble. (What exactly is this absolute theory of zero? Could you please explain? Never really heard about it)
I think a true religion will show that by what it does, if it does good things it will attract more people. Unfortunately, with all those highly publicized immoral and cruel acts by those who hijacked Islam to extremism, and moderate Muslims being helpless or afraid of resisting the extremists, modern Islam has a way to go to show that they are indeed the right religion.
As a Muslim, I am sad that I have to agree with Allegra’s comment. I don’t see how this video ‘proves’ Islam, even though I am a Muslim, and I believe in it.
I don’t think it’s possible to ‘prove’ a religion, and the Quran itself states this:
“If you find their aversion hard to bear, then see if you can make a tunnel in the ground or put a ladder to ascend in the skies by which you can bring them a sign. O Prophet, you know well that if Allah wanted, He would have given guidance to all. So do not be like the ignorant.” (Quran chapter 6 verse 35)
This is addressing the idea that you cannot prove to someone else that your religion is true. However, I can prove it to myself. My experiences have shown me that the Quran is true. If I go against that, I will be making a big mistake. But I can’t transfer my experiences into someone else’s mind. They have their own experiences, and they will be accountable for them, not for mine.
I hope this makes sense.
Yes, it does. I do not see any reason for Mike to be sad due to the inability to prove Islam from science. Religion is a personal experience, the inner being in touch with the spiritual domain. You can describe your personal experience and how that made you better and gave you peace. That is all the reason you need. Just like different people like different colors, different people believe different religions. You can try to talk about why Islam is more convincing from your experience, and if others are persuaded they will follow. As long as religion is used to make a person better, and does only good and no harm to others and other religions, or force others to convert to a certain religion, I have no issues with religious belief. In particular I have great respect to the Sufism in Islam.
On Qur’an, there are lots of issues at many levels, if we are going to look at it in a careful way. Even at Prophet Muhammad’s time, there were critics who claimed that Prophet Muhammad’s seizures as a result of a possessed man, a soothsayer, magician, etc because these experiences were similar to those of many others in ancient Arabia. It is difficult to prove that Prophet Muhammad’s experience was genuine. There were many who claimed that they were prophets, even after Prophet Muhammad, but they were all beheaded. The origin of Qur’an can also be questioned, first oral tradition, then Ali compiled a complete version, caliph Abu Bakr collected chapters to one volume, and other reciters like Zayd ibn Thabit collected chapters and made handwritten books. Then in AD 650 the third caliph Uthman ibn Affan decided to make a standard version, all other versions were destroyed by burning or boiling. Here is the problem, we are not even sure whether the standard version Uthman retained is the original version, since none of the other versions survived. We have no way of reading or comparing the other versions (please see any of the web sources including Wikipedia on Qur’an).
This is why I think it all boils down to a personal belief. There is nothing to be sad about this.
As Mike said – comparing God to electron’s dualistic behavior prove absolutely nothing. First electrons are not light, to compare with interference from light upon light. If you want light, photons, they also have dualistic behavior. Photons has rest mass zero (unlike electrons), I am not sure God is the same. If God is constructed of photons, I would think it would much much high energy photons, and nothing can stop that light from passing through (so the two slit experiments may not work), that may not obey the same patters observed with our low energy light experiments. There is no way we can extrapolate our experiments to God’s level, it is just a wishful thinking and nothing else.
I really wish I have the opportunity to see if the way I comprehend “existence” and “reality” makes any sense out of those so called “issues”. I don’t claim that I am the only one on Earth holding a specific theory, I claim that I do not really know anyone else with a similar interpretation of proofs, signs, life on Earth and Hereafter. So I dare to put my theory at test here; please address issues one at the time and be patient. You are all here because you are interested in both faith and quantum science. So you all know that while we will have a subject dissected under microscope we can’t ignore its belonging to the whole.
What I find sad is why so many get inspiration from Islam to be so violent. Yesterday, on a Christmas day, someone, obviously a muslim, try to blow up a plane in Detroit. I cannot understand this. I read somewhere that in the last fifty years, majority of terrorists acts were committed by muslims; genital mutilation of girls are done primarily by muslims; most of honor killings are done by them; women are reduced to almost nothing (making them slaves under men’s rule) – who cannot drive, cannot go to a mall without a man, should cover head, whole body, and face, which is muslim rule; inject significant intolerance (many muslim countries do not allow churches or temples of other religions on their land; carrying books of other religions is prohibited in many muslim nations); religious leaders of other religions do not issue fatwa’s to kill someone; misinformation from Islamic religious leaders have made polio almost a muslim disease, …. we can go on. I have many muslim friends, and I do not have any hate towards mulsims. But when I see the general actions particular to Islamic followers, sadly I cannot see the greatness in that religion.
Allegra – I don’t mean to say that religion is purely a personal experience and nothing more. But that believing in it is. For me, once I believed in God, it became a matter of studying scriptures. Scriptures can be objectively studied, and I think this is where Islam stood out. There is no other book like the Quran.
Jack – I share your concerns, but I feel like there is a lot of generalization going on. If one Muslim does something bad, people say “Muslims do such and such”, you don’t find this with other religions as much. Timothy McVeigh, who was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombings in 1995, was an American and a Christian. However, you don’t hear people saying “Americans bombed Oklahoma City, or Christians bombed Oklahoma City”.
When the news covers a story, they almost never mention the religion of the perpetrator of a crime, unless he’s a Muslim. However, I do think it’s true that there are extremists out there, who have a very different understanding of the Quran than the mainstream Muslims, just as there are extremists in any faith group.
Not all Christians go out to ethnicly cleanse their countries (i.e. Bosnia, Serbia, and most of Europe over the past few centuries), not all Jews run bulldozers over young American protestors (i.e. Rachel Corrie), and not all Hindus put pregant women to the sword and burn their bodies (i.e. Gujarat). If we want to describe a religion based on the actions of extremists, we will all have a difficult time.
Mike, Let me clarify, the epistemological aspect is purely personal. It is impossible to prove there is a God, difficult to prove the scriptures we have are original, or to prove scriptures are correct, etc. At the end it, to me, it seems like a subjective personal decision and commitment, since knowing these religious dogma are personal and subjective.
I am eager to read your explanation on why Qur’an stood out compared to other religious books (and why you say, there is no other book like Qur’an), if you have the time to post it. I would appreciate it. I hear people saying this, but no one really explained to me why it is so. Thank you.
Allegra,
My initial conact with the Quran was as a person who had no idea what it would be about. The book I was reading at the time was called “The Worlds Religions” by Huston Smith. He was writing from the perspective of an outsider, a non-Muslim, but he di a great job of trying to simply explain what Islam means. In his description of the Quran, he simply stated that it was believed by Muslims to be the word for word revelation of God to Muhammad.
That was enough for me to go get my copy. I was in a search for truth, and the Bible had left me confused with all of its contradictions, and I didn’t know what to believe about Jesus. I had already come to believe in God, but that’s another story.
Anyway, the objective side of studying the Quran involves something you mentioned, its preservation. As far as my research has taken me, there is no reason to believe that the Quran was ever changed or manipulated since its revelation. That’s a whole study in itself, and we could discuss it further, but I’ll stop for now.
The second aspect is it’s lack of contradiction and confusing statements. Other religious scriptures I’ve read, have all seemed to fall short here. Either by one passage contradicting another in the same book, or by the scripture contradicting, in a clear way, the pracice of the religions’ adherents. Or, in the case of some of the Eastern religions, and I mean no disrespect, statements which just utterly confused me. This too is a study unto itself, which I’d be happy to go into detail on.
The fact that people memorize the entire Quran is another thing which I find significant.
The fact that the underlying message of the Quran is consistent with Old Testament teachings about God, and is consistent with Jesus’ message in the Gospels, is another evidence of it’s authenticity. Of course Christians would probably differ in their understanding of the Gospels. We could get into another detailed discussion here.
Another part is the Quran’s ability to highlight facts of nature in a very specific way, which in many cases could not have been known by humans at the time of it’s revelation. Here is another discussion 🙂
There are also more subjective reasons why I believe the Quran is true. One is simply the voice with which it speaks. I’m no Arab, and I hear it is even more powerful in Arabic, but I find it difficult to believe that a human could write a book with such authority as te Quran. It’s interesting, because I felt the same way about parts of the Bible, the parts where God was speaking. I get the impression that it’s the very same voce which is speaking in the Quran. Again, it’s subjective.
There are other reasons too, but they are either subjective, or they are beyond my ability to express, like the alleged numerical miracle of the Quran. I have not fully understood that one yet.
These are just talking points, but maybe they can serve as a basis for further discussion.
I am somewhat afraid of going deeper into this discussion, since I see you have found a place for you and I rather not introduce doubts in your belief system. I respect your belief. So, with some hesitation, I will address some aspects. The true Muslims do believe Qur’an as the word of God, fundamentalist Christians view Bible as the word of God. Hindus think their Vedas are directly given by Gods, etc. There is absolutely no proof for any of these, simply a belief. On preservation, one could argue that Bible was better preserved than Koran – no one ever burned all other versions of Bible to preserve one version, as they did with Qur’an. Many versions of Bible (the Masoretic text, Septuagint, even Vulgate dating back to 328 AD, etc.) are all available for comparison and criticism; this is not something that we can do with Qur’an since all other versions are burned in 650 AD.
Apparent contradictions are always possible with complex systems, the topic video is about a contradiction in physics – electrons with a certain mass behaving like massless light. As long as we believe that electrons have to behave either like particles or like wave, we have a contradiction. But once we accept that it can do both, the contradiction will simply vanish. The contradictions with Bible is pretty much like that. If one deals with simpler systems, there are fewer possibilities of contradictions. I usually give the benefit of doubt that the author knew what he was writing, so apparent contradictions in the same book is probably due to my lack of understanding of the context than his writing. But if contradictions are a factor, the real Buddism is probably a great religion, in addition, Buddists are generally been very peaceful people (except may be in Sri Lanka to some degree).
Jews used to memorize the entire Torah, there are comparisons of eating Torah indicating it is the source of life, and it has to be one with the person. Memorizing scriptures is not unique to Muslims. In fact, I find more value in understanding the meaning carefully than being able to recite the book.
When we say Qur’an is consistent with Old Testament and New Testament, it raises a question. New Testaments summary says one cannot get salvation with works alone (because no one is perfect enough to meet God’s standard, and that the Jewish understanding of fulfilling the laws were flawed). Islamic motivation has gone back to Jewish laws of fulfilling a long list of rules (many of them were subjected to misinterpretation, just like in other religions). The only major difference I can see is that Jews did not expect to go to paradise by fulfilling laws, Islam borrowed paradise from Christians and mixed it with Judaism’s rules. For Christians the rule is fairly simple, and there are no contradictions. Just look around, people are generally wicked if no one is watching, it is the human nature, and if they have to be saved, they cannot do it by themselves by obeying rules (because they are incapable of doing this – I have seen even religious Muslims not keeping their own rules). So we need a savior, that Christians found in Jesus. If you read few books by Richard Swinburne (he was a philosophy professor at Oxford for a long time- in fact his first book was on quantum mechanics), particularly ‘The Christian God’, you will see he deals with many of these issues, and many will find it convincing. I am not even dealing with Eastern religions, because that will be a very long discussion. But I think to the followers, each religion is so appealing.
My reservation about Islam is particularly based on their view of other religions, and how to deal with other religions. Talking about contradictions: Sura 2 (2:109) “Many of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) wish that they could turn you away as disbelievers… But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings his command.” changed to “Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God does not love transgressors.” in 2:190, and then towards the end of revelations, Sura 9: “When the sacred months are past, kill the idolators wherever you find them, and seize them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush” (9:5, the ‘verse of the sword’). For “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews), there are other uncomfortable options: “Fight… the People of the Book until they pay the poll tax out of hand, having been humbled.” (9:29) (which is practiced in some countries). Many Muslim scholars have explained this doctrine, eg. Grand Mufti, talking about the ‘three option’ theory: “To discuss or argue… with them is not up to us. It is for them to choose between conversion to Islam, payment of the poll tax, or death.” (The Muqaddimah). There is nothing in the New Testament asking its followers to convert by force or tax, and kill them if they are not converted (New Testament talks about preaching and persuading people to Christianity) – there is a huge difference here.
Coming back, I have nothing but respect to your belief system. But there is nothing much objective about it. We see billions of people in China who are atheists, billions in India totally committed to Hinduism, many in other places believing in Buddism, and many believing in Islam. If the reasons are objective and clear, we would have much less diversity. At the end, it all boils down to a simple personal belief.
No worldly example will ever be identical to the situations in which THE CREATOR and HIS commands are involved, but I will try to use examples in the attempt of explaining things to my knowledge or understanding. Verses of Qura’n are to be interpreted according to the circumstances in which they were revealed. Not all the verses were intended as timeless solutions.
In my understanding, if I am a soldier and I have to follow a clear order with great impact on humanity and there are people who try to prevent me from following that order, including chasing me, will give me no choice but to do all that it takes to follow that order. Now you will argue about the nature of the order. An order from the Creator must be followed, no fear and cowardice should interfere, no matter how great the obstacles. Nowadays the message is already spread; there is no point in fighting for getting the word out. The verse stating that there is no faith by force is a clear proof. The verses used by haters as evidence that Islam is not a peaceful religion were meant only for the period closed to the beginning of Mohamed’s prophethood.
Don’t worry about introducing doubts. I can handle it.
If you’re willing to discuss further, let’s start with the authenticity of the texts. It would be too much to try and tackle all these issues at once.
Regarding the burning of certain copies of the Quran, you have a reasonable concern there. However, when you look at the source of this information more deeply, the concern will vanish.
The narrations of the Quran are what we call ‘mutawattir’ or continuious. This means that wherever Muslims traveled, their Quran was the same as all other Muslims*. The books of hadith tell us about Abu Bakr’s compilation of the Quran, in order to preserve it’s integrity. Zaid ibn Thabit was the companion in charge of collecting the various writen records of the Quran, and the statements of other companions. He produced the official record of the Quran, which was kept with Hafsa, one of the Prophet’s wives.
The fact that this was done so early on, by the Prophet’s very close companions and family members, and that this process was recorded in detail, should actually sere to eliminate any suspicion one may have regarding the text’s authenticty.
Uthman, another of the Prophet’s close companions, later made copies (seven I believe), of Hafsa’s text, and had all others destroyed. This was all with the approval of the other companions, according to te records we have available.
The reason that other copies existed in the first place, was because many of the companions kept their own copy for personal use. They would learn a surah, and write it down to keep in their own book. Since the Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years, and it was not revealed in the final order in which it was written, this led to some of the writing to be different than the final completed Quran.
There is one other issue which you did not mention. The fact that there are 7 varient readings of the Quran might also be a point of concern for the skeptic. However, these concerns should vanish when one learns that the Prophet himself described these varients, and they are all well known, and documented. The differences come down to a handfull of words, and a few different pronunciations, all of which keep the same meaning and intent of the others. These varient readings are accepted by the Muslims and you will not find any groups trying to foist their Quran over others.
All this serves to explain the current texts of the Quran, and leaves little or no room to doubt its authenticty. You can still doubt it, but that would have to be due to some suspicion you are harboring, and not due to any actual evidence.
The books of the Bible, with some small exceptions, do not have authors. No one knows who wrote Genesis. Yes, it is attributed to Moses, allong with the rest of the first five books, but even Christian and Jewish scholars dispute this. When you read the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch), you will see that Moses comes in in Exodus, and he dies at the end of Deuteronomy, and yet it continues to describe how and where he was buried, and certain things which happened after his death. This would serve as clear evidence that Moses was not the author, even though no evidence actually exists to prove that he was.
Having no author is not a good start to trying to authenticate a text. I hope you can see the difference between these examples, and why I consider them to be objective evidence.
Mike,
Great, we can do it slowly. As I always said, I have only respect to religious people – as long as they leave others to choose their own religion. Sometime I will be busy, but I will try to post a reply in a few days to a week.
On historical aspects: I will accept your narrative of the events. But there is a possibility of a different interpretation. The entire Qur’an was given by one person. There is nothing to prove that what Prophet Muhammad wrote was indeed given to him by the angel, there are no witnesses, no one else corroborated this, we just have the word from just one person. It is almost impossible to defend this position if someone is to bring a claim that Qur’an was not God’s message to people, and Muhammad made it himself (yes, I know people say it is so complicated that an illiterate person could not have made it – first Muhammad was not illiterate, and we do not know what kind of literary talents he had).
When they wanted to standardized Qur’an, they could have made an authentic version, the Muslim community was fairly small and the word of mouth at that time would have been sufficient to guide the followers that they should use the authentic version. When people destroy or burn evidence, it increases suspicion to a high degree. What was in those books for them to be burned, removing from the world for ever?
If authenticity of writings is the condition for truth or falsehood of a religion, then the works and life of Joseph Smith, Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (to suggest a few examples) are better documented, there work is better preserved and the historical roots of their work are more certain than Qur’an.
I will also limit the comparisons to primarily Christianity, although it is more fun to add Eastern Religions. The Bible, although we do not know the authors of every book (I am not sure that is even important), was written by many different authors, unlike Qur’an. One could argue that the probability is higher, much higher, for a document created by one person to go wrong (or fabricated), than a document produced by more than 60 people lived in very different periods of time with amazing consistency in the theme (although there are some apparent inconsistencies, which is expected with that large time span). I am sure if you or some other person sit down and work for the next 10 years, you can produce a highly consistent document.
In summary, in my opinion, it is difficult to argue that certainty of documents’ origin adds to certainty of a religion, and there are ample areas of doubt one could raise about Islam, or about any other religion. I have read Qur’an several times, I have not particularly struck with any significant revelations from it, nothing particularly important other than more laws similar to the Leviticus laws. Qur’an talks about one God, but that was the theme among Jews, and among Christians in a more complicated way. From what I read, proclaiming that Muhammad is the last messenger does not add anything more to the general requirement from Jews and Christians on worshiping one God, and no other deity – call it Allah or by some other name.
I am actually not trying to mean anything bad about Islam, I just taking a side to counter your suggestions.
I think we can agree on a few things already. I will point these out before continuing our discussion.
For one, you mentioned that people should let others choose their own religion. I could not agree more. Not only from personal conviction, but from the Quran itself.
“Let there be no compulsion in religion…” (2:256)
There are many verses like this one which ensure freedom of religion under Islamic rules.
Also, it may be better to exclude Eastern religions from our discussion for now. No argument there. Maybe later…
Regarding the authenticity of the texts, I think you’re right in one aspect, it is not the primary source of one’s beliefs. The people around the Prophet Muhammad, and other prophets for that matter, had no text to analyse. They simply had the word of their messenger to believe in.
I think my belief comes from within myself, and when I see that belief expressed in the Bible and in the Quran, I simply believe it to be true.
However, I do see a huge difference between the Bible and the Quran as well. I don’t know how well versed you are in the Bible, but there are some pretty big contradictions in it. The two different accounts of the migration of the Jews back to Israel would be a good place to start, one in the book of Ezra, and the other in Nehemia. Look at the numbers given for each group. There are clear dscrepancies.
I’m not suggesting that we throw out the whole Bible because of a few numerical discrepancies. However, you have to admit that there was some human error involved here, and that it cannot be a result of direct revelation from God.
The Quran is free from such errors, and while that does not prove it to be true, it certainly makes it more defensible.
There are other kinds of discrepencies in the Bible too. For instance the idea that Jeses abolished the commandments of God. Paul clearly states this in Ephesians 2:14-15. However Jesus clearly states that he did not come to abolish the commandments in Mathew 5:17-20.
To me it is clear, the Old Testament, the Gospels (i.e. Jesus) and the Quran agree that one must believe in God and follow His commandments. It is only the letters of Paul and Christian theologans who reject this idea.
The Quran is significant for more than simply introducing laws. It is a confirmation of the older scriptures, but also a filter. It confirms the Torah and the Gospels, but it also shows where the Jews and Christians went wrong. It demonstrates how the Jews took things too literally and missed the spirit of the Law, just as Jesus told them in the Bible. It also shows how the Christians elevated Jesus too high, whereas he was only a messenger of God.
The Bible, in its current state, is too filled with conflicting information. One cannot really derive the truth from it anymore. The Quran fulfills this role.
I agree with many of your statements, and some more. I will also agree with you that there are several disagreements in the Bible (I am not sure whether they are contradictions, which requires a much stricter logical standard ‘A and not-A being true at the same time’). There are human errors (either in the original or errors by scribes), but that does not bother me much about any religions. For reasonable Christians, Bible is inspired by God, not exactly dictated by God (other than the Ten Commandments), so some of these errors are allowed, unless it question the basic tenants of the religion.
The same can be said about Qur’an. Since you brought up 2:256 (let there be no compulsion in religion..), which I agree and adore as a golden rule, we will compare that with commands found later in the book. 9.3 ‘And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith’ (the context is here and now, not after the judgment), and 9.5 (fight and kill Pagans wherever you find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every war; but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is forgiving Most Merciful’) to 9:29 ‘Fight those who believe not in Allah, not at the last day, … until they pay Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued’ . I see a progression here, from being a more caring and accepting doctrine to becoming more intolerant towards the end. In fact there is almost a direct correspondence with what Muhammad had to go through in terms of the opposition to Islam with the tone and the nature of commands in Qur’an – which questions the notion whether it was a revelation. In my opinion, this difference is not a contradiction, but a significant inconsistency on a very important issue.
Another inconsistency: Compare how man was created: from clay (Sura 15:26), from dust (3:59), from nothing (19:67 Yusaf Ali, 52:35), from sperm-drop (16:4), from blood (96:2). I do not see any consistency here.
Does Allah’s decrees change: Yes, new decrees and revelations replacing older ones, 2:106, 16:101 to no in 6:34, 6:115.
Again, I can go on, but you get the flavor. Usually believers overlook these inconsistencies, or it never appear to them as an inconstancy. But I am sure there is an elaborate way of making them appear consistent, but we can do that with most other religions also. Again, I do not believe that few inconsistencies are going to diminish the truthfulness of a religion, as long as we understand the nature of inconsistency in a historical sense.
So, that takes us to Jesus and Paul.
Mathew 5:17- , ‘I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill them’, and to Paul, no one can really obey the law unless he/she receive God’s help in obeying the law. When someone believe in Jesus, they are born again (John 3:4-16), since Jesus has fulfilled the law and since a true Christian is a new born again person, they can obey the law naturally with the help of God. Interpreted that way, there is no theological disagreements. To Paul a real conversion is necessary before one can obey the law, because no one can really stand in front of God’s judgment because people (including Muslims) do not measure up to God’s standard. I do not disagree with the necessity of work, except for very committed Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians also believe in obeying the commandments and having faith in Jesus. But the necessity of work is still highly questionable – Jesus told to the thief on the cross that he will be in paradise that day. There was nothing good about the thief’s actions, he himself admitted it, it was simply based on the true faith of the thief.
Since Muslims accept the Gospals, Mathew 3:17, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” about Jesus during his baptism attest to his authenticity, but no such authentication for Muhammad can be found. Jesus himself had made several claims his special status in the Gospels, eg. Mathew 16:15-20. So, I am not convinced that the claims by Muslims about Prophet Muhammad can be justified, because there are no other supporting evidence other than Muhammad’s words.
Now, as I said before, I do not see any significant addition from Prophet Muhammad’s writing. Do we have to accept that Muhammad is the last Prophet to be a Muslim – I do not see that. I am not even sure whether Prophet Muhammad was the first Muslim (although Sura 39:12 says that). But then, when we read 7:143 and 2:132, it seems many since Abraham was chosen in the faith of Islam. So, I am not sure what Our’an really adds. From what I understand Quran’s main mission seems to be to claim that Jesus is not God, and it was told to Muhammad by the angel. But I am not sure why we should consider Qur’an any more credible than Bible or Torah, in fact dealing with a complex web of associations with Bible, accepting some and rejecting some, Islam adds more doubts than clarifying it. If the objective was to correct some of the Christian doctrines, then I would assume Allah would have chosen someone close to the regions where Christianity was spreading (and Jews are present) just like where Jesus was born – among the Jews, so that there will be a more direct effect on Christians, rather than finding someone in a place where the locals believed in a complex polytheistic region. These are all issues that would raise doubts in a person not totally committed to Islam.
It would be interesting to read your opinion.
This one about the creation is my favorite. You are intelligent and know that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, each of the elements taken apart having different properties than the final result, the water. If I say that I use hydrogen, in making water, intending to stress on the properties of that component, my statement is correct. If then I say I use oxygen for making water, again my statement is correct. If I say I use oxygen and hydrogen in different proportions to produce water, I am not running any inconsistency. Clay is made of soil and water, the soil has carbon and minerals in it. Men created from carbohydrates is no non-sense. So men was created from nothing I see it as opposed to the Evolutionist theory, that mankind evolved from monkeys. The Creator created Adam as a specific creation, not evolved from something else.
I will first address the issues you brought up in the Quran. After that, I will try to explain why I think they are quite
different than the inconsistencies found in the Bible.
Reagarding Surah 9, and all of it’s talk of killing the non-believers, I really think this is unfortunate. I’ve seen these verses
quoted out of context so many times, I implore you to read the whole chapter.
In summary, the chapter is about certain Arab tribes who had repeatedly made covenents of peace with the Muslims,
and had repeatedly broken their covenant by attacking and killing Muslims. These are the people who are being
mentioned.
9:1 “Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye
made a treaty:”
This is the first verse, where it clearly describes the subject of the surah. In addition, the command to fight and kill is
not even applied to all of the non-believers, it is only to those who broke the treaty, as seen here…
9:4 “Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your
right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for
these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).”
and here…
9:7 “How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a
treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they
are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.”
What did the others do to merit such retaliation? Was it just because they did not become Muslims? Or because they
continued to worship idols?
9:13 “Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack
you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right
that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers.”
They broke their solemn pledges (treaties of peace). They wanted to drive Muhammad out of his home, and they
attacked the Muslims first.
Forget the historical context, it’s all here in the Quran. If you want I can reproduce the whole surah here, but I assume
you have access to it. Please read it again.
The Quran’s stance on fighting is consistent, it is used when others first attack and oppress Muslims.
2:190 “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.”
The command is to fight the ones who have faught against you. You cannot start a war if you follow this command. It
even specifies that a persons faith is not enough to justify fighting against him…
4:94 “O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one
who offereth you peace: “Thou are not a believer;” seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him).
With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto
you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever informed of what ye do.”
It is true, some Muslims may have taken those very verses out of context, and used them to justify some bad stuff, but
this does not change the Quran. They will be judged by the same standard.
60:1 “Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your
homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers. Allah forbiddeth
you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to
drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them–(All) such are wrong doers.”
The standard is set here, the ones who fight against you, and drive you out of your homes, they’re the baddies. Other
people who don’t do this are to be considered friendly.
It is within this context that any other verses should be understood, even if the exact context is not provided directly.
For instance…
9:29 “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and
forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they
pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”
This is describing the Jews and the Christians. However, you can’t just apply it to any Jew or Christian. Given the other
statements about fighting, you could only apply this verse if those Jews or Christians attacked first, otherwise you would
have an inconsistency, and you would be violating other commands.
As far as the verses about how man was created, it is all summed up here…
71:14 When He created you by (divers) stages?
22:5 “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a
drop of seed, then from a clot (alaq), then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear
for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you
forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth
(young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge,
he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth
thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth).”
The point is that God created us from all these things at one time or another. Adam, the first man, was created from
dust. Then the rest of us were created from a drop of seed (sperm). In our mother’s wombs the sperm combines with
the egg to form a zygot. The word alaq in arabic can mean a blood clot, but it literally means ‘that which clings’, and
this is describing perfectly the zygot when it is attached to the walls of the placenta.
The Quran also says we were created from water, which is scientifically sound. When it says dust, the better English
translation would be dirt, or earth. When you mix this with water, you get clay or mud. So all of these things work
together to form a picture of how God created Adam. None of them rule out the others.
Even when it say that he created us out of nothing, it is not inconsistent either. The dust and water were not always
there, they were created as well, so originally it was out of nothing.
Finally, whether God’s decree can be changed, that’s an easy one. Yes, God can update, replace or ammend His
decrees, and no, no one else can do that.
As you said, I don’t see any problem with God changing the rules based on differing time periods and situations. For
instance, in the early stages of the Prophet’s mission, fighting was forbidden for the Muslims. After they moved to
Medina, and the people of Medina elected the Prophet as head of state, this rule was changed.
I also agree that basic tenents of the faith should not change. That’s where I have real difficulty with the teachings of the
Bible. Before I get into details, let me give you an overview of my issue with this. The Bible contains scribal errors and
small contradictions, as we’ve discussed before. Many of these are evident in the text, because similar accounts of the
same fact or event do not give the same information. However, what about situations where there is no other account?
How can we be sure that these are accurate?
When it comes to matters of faith and belief in God, I don’t think we should accept a document which has been
compromised in any way.
Where is this most apparent? I think it is in the ideas of original sin, and the alleged divinity of Jesus. However, we
were having a discussion about whether Jesus had come to abolish the commandments. Let’s finish that first.
This is something I’ve written about before. I hope you don’t mind, but I’m just pasting it here.
Did Jesus abolish the Commandments?
From the following verses it is clear that Paul (the writer of most of the New Testament) is claiming that the Law, or Commandments have been abolished, by Jesus. He goes on to explain that one can achieve righteousness without worrying about ones actual deeds (works of the Law). Words in parenthesis are from Strong’s Greek Dictionary.
Ephesians 2:13-15 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law (nomos) of commandments (entole) and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,”(RSV)
Romans 3:20 “For no human being will be justified in his sight by works (ergon) of the law (nomos), since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:28 “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works (ergon) of law (nomos).”
However James, in the book of James, writes quite contrary to this. It is almost as if he was writing in response to the statements of Paul, something we will examine more closely.
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law (nomos) of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work (ergon), this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:14-26 “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works (ergon)? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works (ergon), is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works (ergon), and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works (ergon) is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works (ergon), and faith was completed by works (ergon), and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works (ergon) and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works (ergon) is dead.”
How can we resolve this issue? Who is the higher authority, Paul, who claimed to have been inspired by Jesus after his alleged crucifixion, or James, who followed Jesus in his lifetime, and was the head of the church in Jerusalem. Since both individuals referred back to Jesus as their source of information, perhaps we should judge this matter based upon what Jesus said…
Matthew 5:17 “Think not that I am come to destroy the law (nomos), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (entole), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Mark 1:44 “and said to him, “See that you say nothing to any one; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, for a proof to the people.”
Luke 6:46-49 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.”
Mark 10:17-22 “And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. ” “Thou knowest the commandments (entole), Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. ” And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, “One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. ” And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.”
Jesus clearly indicates that the Law is not abolished, nor the commandments, but that they should be observed in the preceding verses. Jesus’ statements confirm the opinion of James very clearly. This difference of opinion is not something I am inventing, or even a new way of looking at the New Testament, but it is presented in the writings of Paul himself, in the book of Galatians.
Galations 2:11-13 But when Peter (Cephas) came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity.
Galations 1:6-8 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel, not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that, which we preached to you, let him, be accursed.
Acts 15:36-41 And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, and see how they do. And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work. And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches.
Paul has shown that there were at least two markedly different interpretations of the Gospel, even while he was writing the New Testament: namely that of the circumcision party, headed apparently by James in Jerusalem, and his own party, who rejected the Law of Moses, and considered it a curse.
Galatians 3:10-13 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
It is important to mention here, that the book of James presents a very different theology. Emphasizing the importance of works along with faith, he contradicts Paul’s teachings on many levels. Furthermore, he never mentions Jesus’ alleged crucifixion, or describes Jesus as the son of God.
Paul has made several key points here, which are accepted by most Christians without question, including the abolition of the Law, and the forgiveness of sins through Jesus’ crucifixion. Paul was claiming to be a prophet, speaking for Jesus to spread his Gospel to the Gentiles. The following verse summarizes Paul’s theology more concisely than any other.
Romans 10:9 “because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
However, Christians should really consider carefully whether to take Paul’s words as those of God. Jesus himself warned his followers of false prophets, and those who would change the message that he taught.
Matthew 7:21-23 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.”
Seeing that this discussion is getting quite long, and it’s not really relevant to the whole quantum physics thing, maybe we should continue through email.
Mine is mkschmidt30@hotmail.com
Mike, I did not mean to say all terrorists are muslims, or all muslims are terrorists. But after the end of second world war, an overwhelming majority of terrorists were inspired by Islam. McVeigh is an exception, along with the Korean student in Virginia Tech, etc. Just look at what muslims are doing against fellow mulsims in Iraq, Pakistan, which is much extensive than with Northern Ireland, then we have them doing things against hindus in India. Serbian issue was more than religious, the orthodox gave chatholics as much trouble as they gave to muslims.
The list of muslim extremists is so long, in London, attack at the Glasgow airport, 9/11, Mumbay attack, attack at the army base in Kuwait in the Iraq war, attack at Fort Hood, etc. It is so disturbing even to think that some muslims might hold children as hostages and kill hundreds of them in Beslan, Russia. What disturbs more is what I see from religious readers. I do not think I can find any other religious leaders issuing Fatwas to kill others – it appears unique to muslims (against Salman Rushdie, against the author of that Mohammad cartoons in Denmark, etc). You know, people can make any cartoons about Jesus, and you will not find many Christians rioting or bishops issuing Fatwas (if I am wrong, can you please point out a religious leader from another religion who did that in recent times?). Thanks.
Thanks much for the lengthy explanation, which explained your beliefs very clearly. I hope you are correct in your interpretation and I wish there are more Muslims like you, with your views. But unfortunately that is not the case, and was not the case historically.
As I accepted in my previous post, with sufficient effort one can make things appear to be compatible, Christians do that too – there is nothing unique about that in Islam, I think. But even the Muslims just after Muhammad’s time seem to have understood this context of Sura 9 very differently. We know in Muslim tradition, the difference between political leadership and religious authority is small. With that in context, the Muslim expansion and conquer (against all the doctrines you pointed out) started from AD 622 to 750 with Ummayad/Abbasid dynasty conquering lots of land and converting people, possibly ending in the Battle of Tours when Charles Martel defeated Muslim invaders in France – the Muslims went all the way to the current France when there was no threats, no contacts to violate, and no oppression from them for a Jihad. The Crusaders were a reaction to this invasion, which of course carried out their own atrocities in the name of God, and could not succeed at the end. Then we have from AD 1071-1683 another Muslim expansion, that ended in the Battle of Vienna, when that armed Muslim invasion was stopped. Whenever they expanded, they converted local people, usually with force or tax; not by persuasion. Mogul dynasty in India forcefully converted Hindus to Muslims – Aurangzeb (1658-1707), who was essentially an invader introduced a jizaya tax on Hindus in India for refusing to convert to Islam (in contrast the British never forced anyone to convert to Christianity, the missionaries did that part by convincing people). Historically Sura 9 rules were applied not used just for violating a balanced contract or treaty, as you say. I wish you were correct.
I have no problem if someone wants to believe that “nothing” at some time is the same as “water” or “dust” or “mud”, or a mix of that with respect to man’s origin. But I do not see a consistency. In my opinion, if it was divinely given words, I would expect more precision, and assume that the words would have been chosen more carefully. If it was simply claimed as inspired words, susceptible to mistakes, then I would not have any problems.
About Christianity and Paul, I would get to that, but before that I would like to have your opinion. Did the thief on the cross go to the Paradise as Jesus promised? The answer will help me to decide the direction I would pick for my response, because I like to see our common basis where I can frame my explanations.
We can email too, but I am not sure anyone is reading these posts. They someone does, it may be interesting to them, I hope. I will give you my email also with my next post. I am in an airport – about to go through the early morning long security line.
Jack – I understand what you’re saying. I just feel like there is some bias in the reporting of these events. Of course I don’t deny that Muslims are responsible for some heinous crimes. However, I don’t think it is a result of their religion, but rather a lack of understanding of their religion, combined with very difficult situations, like occupation of foreign countries etc…
I would ask you to hesitate before brushing aside the events I mentioned regarding other forms of religious fanatacism. Ireland is a good example. Look at the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the pograms directed against the Jews throughout Europe. Christians have had their share of horrible acts. Most European Christian countries are now secular because of this fact.
The Holocoust is usually not attributed to the Christian religion. However Hitler was raised a Roman Catholic, and he did publicly acknowledge Christian doctrine at times, and the Bible does contain some pretty negative comments about Jews. Imagine if Germany were a Muslim country. If it’s leader mentioned Islam here and there to rally support of the people. I think everyone would attribute those acts to Islam.
Talk to some Pakistanis about what is going on in India and Kashmir. You will hear a very different side of the story. One in which mobs of sword weilding Hindus attacks innocent Muslim men women and children, and murders, rapes and burns them. Why are these events, which are well documented and acknowledged by international organizations like Amnesty International, not reported in the news media?
I’m not saying everyone else is bad, and only Muslims are good. However, I think there is an effort to seek the specific cause of wrongful actions when it’s a member of our own team (i.e. Christians etc…) and it’s easier to attribute the wrongful actions of others to their different set of beliefs (i.e. Islam).
Allegra – I would assume that the thief would go to paradise. However, it’s important to considerthat he had no chance to carry out any works. If for some reason, he was released and had the opportunity to do good, and didn’t, then that would be another story.
Mike, Sure, I do accept that Christians did their share of cruelty, some of them, as Allegra suggested, were reactions to muslim’s actions. That is why I limited the period to post World War II, just to cancel out all the retaliations in the old history. But I am not all that sure past Christian actions is the reason for a secular Europe, they probably realized that they do not need religion. Albanian and Bosnian muslims are also secular; compared to others, they did not do any major harm to anyone.
Bible contains some negative comments about Jewish leaders, not about Jews. This I think I will leave this for Allegra, but most of Jesus followers were ordinary Jews. St. Paul was constantly hassled by Jewish authorities, so there are some negative comments. But there are lots of positive comments about Jews also, even by St. Paul.
I doubt anyone will consider Hilter as a Christian – see Inside the Third Reich, Memiors by Albert Speer, Adolf Hitler, Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944, and other books, it becomes obvious that he was not at all a Christian. The difference, as Allegra correctly pointed out, the political actions by most mulsims countries are completely based on religious doctrines. They allow no separation.
Unfortunately, you have gotten incorrect information from Pakistanis. Yes there were few cases where hindus rioted against muslims, but for every single time that happed in India, it was a response to muslims attack on trains, on villages, etc. Being in UK, I pay some attention to India, I have not seen a single incident in India that was started by hindus without a clear first provocation by muslims. In Kashmir, there were few cases of rape by Indian soldiers, and in one case, I believe the authorities know who did it but he is still free – which is very unfortunate. But this is not a general problem. Nothing like what the Japanese did in China/Korea (Please note that there are cases of women being violated by men in mulsim countries, where the women usually get the punishment). In general, both muslims and hindus are much safer in Indian side of Kashmir than anywhere in Pakistan. We all know the type of rape, murder, and school burnings that went on in Swat Valley, Pakistan by the Taliban. In India muslims are considered as a disadvantaged minority and have special consideration (and certain fraction of seats are reserved) for education and jobs, that even Christians (as a smaller minority) do not get. I have not looked into it, but I assume most muslim countries will give less preference to the disadvantaged non-muslim minorities.
As Allegra pointed out, there are muslims in India and Pakistan because the Mughal empire converted people to Islam under the threat of force. There is nothing noble about that.
I understand your point about not always attributing the religious relation in all acts. The reason many atrocities are attributed to muslims, is because the culprits admit that they are acting for the sake of Islam, to implement Islamic rules. Wasn’t there a guy in US associated with bombing abortion clinics and the Olympic site, and I believe his association with Christian doctrines was made clear in the news.
I would just read your discussions with Allegra. I have nothing much to add.
Well, Mike, if you accept that the thief went to paradise, it simplifies the issue a lot. First, Jesus had the power to forgive all his sins. None of the prophets had done that, and the Jews considered that sins can be forgiven only by God. My issue is the following: the thief had the opportunity to do good all his life and he did not, and he yet went to paradise. Which clearly shows work is not always the condition to go to paradise. Now look at the condition for his forgiveness. He was a sinner, he acknowledged that he is a sinner, and recognized that Jesus, being sinless should not be on the cross, and he acknowledge that Jesus is a special person who will be in paradise. That is all he did. That is exactly what Paul was saying – work is not always the path, faith in Jesus is. In other words, Jesus can save.
Let me put myself as the subject. I like to do good always, but I will be the first to admit that I do not do that always. I do not help others as much as I should, etc. I consider my transgressions to be relatively minor and I usually do not care about it, but they are still disobeying God. I am sure others are no different. Jesus said anyone lusting for a woman has already committed adultery; I am sorry, I cannot keep that commandment all the time even if I try, even though I will never physically do anything bad to a woman even if she is all alone in an island (in fact I would do everything I can to help her). I am pretty sure no one can follow such strict laws, including Christian and Muslim religious leaders. If someone takes those violations seriously, or there are other serious violations, then of course, they need a savior. The only way that person can go to paradise is by Jesus forgiving all the sins as He did to the thief. To Christians it makes perfect sense. I don’t advocate any religion for anyone, but if someone ask me to pick one, I will have to pick Christianity – because of this logic – people are going to violate the law no matter how hard we try to obey them (this does not mean we should stop trying). If we are serious about paradise, then faith in Jesus is the only solution, as for the thief. If anyone says that he/she is perfect in obeying these religious rules, I do not believe them, I think they are lying or misinterpreting the rules. I think this is a convincing logic, as long as that person believes that Jesus has the power to forgive sins (but that we already agreed regarding the thief). No other religions offer that option (although I can suggest some Eastern religions, but as promised, I will stay away from that).
Jesus has brought the message of forgiveness along with repeating that earthly death is not the last thing to experience, but there is Hereafter and the Judgement Day. No believer could be considered as such, ignoring the message from Jesus, that’s why one that lived after Jesus couldn’t be saved unless that person believed in Jesus’ message. Seen from this angle, Jesus IS a savior.
In my humble opinion, Paradise can not be achieved without great MERCY from the Creator, only by good deeds, because no human is perfect and free of sins and mistakes. It is very interesting how the Mercy is expressed: each good intention that is not acted upon remains still a good deed that will weight in the balance. Each bad intention that it is not enacted is counted as a good deed also because it did not become a bad deed. Each bad intention that became a bad deed will stay a bad deed and will be counted as such, and each good intention that became a good deed is counted as ten good deeds. Now imagine the consequences. And it is stated in Qura’n that no deed loses its account. Everything is measured with this generous and merciful measurement.
Jack – Unfortunately I do not have your keen insight into events which occurred in other parts of the world, and in other time periods, and I cannot say with certainty who started which conflicts and why.
My point was that the religious fanatic who uses his holy book to justify acts of aggression and violence, is not really following the teachings of the religion, whether he is a Muslim, Jew, or a KKK member. If you are suggesting that Muslims do this because their book tells them to, I will argue the exact opposite, and back up my arguments with proof.
Allegra – The Bible itself argues against your logic. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that the Bible is an accurate record of Jesus’ life and sayings. Here is the verse in which Jesus makes this claim…
Mark 2:8-11 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, “Why do you question thus in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, `Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, `Rise, take up your pallet and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he said to the paralytic– “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.” And he rose, and immediately took up the pallet and went out before them all; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”
Notice his disclaimer of “on earth”. While on Earth, he had been given the authority to forgive sins. This is far from a claim to being God, please remember that Jesus always mentioned these disclaimers…
John 8:28-30 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to him.” As he spoke thus, many believed in him.
So was he forgiving sins on his own authority? Or was he merely fulfilling his role as God’s Messenger?
Matthew 7:21-27 “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
“Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”
Jesus himself connects salvation with not only believing, but with acting on those beliefs. For your information, Muslims do not believe that we can be perfect, and that we can follow every law that God has given us. However, we do believe that God’s laws are just, and that they are for our own benefit, and by breaking them it is only harmful for ourselves. How do we overcome this problem?
And those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind and ask for forgiveness for their sins and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens with rivers flowing underneath an eternal dwelling; how excellent a recompense for those who work! (Quran 3:135)
Does this mean that we can work our way into paradise? Of course not…
“This is naught else than a reminder unto creation, Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight. And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.” (Quran 81:27-29)
It is only by God’s mercy that we even have this knowledge, and by God’s mercy that our hearts will recieve it. And we Muslims believe in Jesus too…
“Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes,
and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have
surrendered.” (Quran 2:136)
Should be in quotations… sorry
“And those who having done something to be ashamed of or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind and ask for forgiveness for their sins and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens with rivers flowing underneath an eternal dwelling; how excellent a recompense for those who work!” (Quran 3:135)
Mike, Happy New Year! And thanks for your reply.
Bible does not argue against the logic I presented. Let us look at Mark 2:10 – I am quoting below the original Greek version and the direct translation. I am not an expert on old Koine Greek, but it is not seem that different from the current Greek. When I read this passage (particularly the original) carefully, as seen from the structure below, ‘the earth’ is the domain of Jesus’ power, not the duration for which his power is active. What it is saying is that Jesus has the power to forgive ‘sins on earth’, not he has the power to forgive ‘sins while he is on earth’. The later understanding is a misinterpretation of the text. I have asked the opinion of two expert in Koine Greek to confirm this, but I do not expect any different reading from them.
Mark 2:10
10 ινα δε {BUT THAT} ειδητε (5762) {YE MAY KNOW} οτι {THAT} εξουσιαν {AUTHORITY} εχει (5719) {HAS} ο {THE} υιος του {SON} ανθρωπου {OF MAN} αφιεναι (5721) {TO FORGIVE} επι {ON} της {THE} γης {EARTH} αμαρτιας {SINS,—} λεγει (5719) {HE SAYS} τω {TO THE} παραλυτικω {PARALYTIC,}
11 σοι {TO THEE} λεγω (5719) {I SAY,} εγειραι (5669) {ARISE,} και {AND} αρον (5657) τον {TAKE UP} κραββατον {COUCH} σου {THY} και {AND} υπαγε ( 5720) {GO} εις τον {TO} οικον σου {THY HOUSE.}
You might ask what additional meaning ‘on earth’ adds to our understanding in this verse. For one thing, it could be just a saying, like ‘I think you are the best person ever lived on earth’. Here ‘on earth’ does not add anything more, but it is just for completion. But more than that, there is the possibility of other universes, or other planets with very advanced living beings in our own universe. May be these other planets needs their own messengers and savior. In that context, Jesus domain is limited to earth.
I do not disagree with your interpretation on believing and obeying in Jesus’ saying. Most Christians, even Protestants, believe that too. Even Paul (in Romans and many of his letters) did not just stop with the requirement of belief, he gave many rules and regulations as well. But he also summarized regulations on behavior with the requirement of love (to others and God), which if genuine, will take care of many of these regulations. I don’t see any problems here.
On Mathew 7: 21-27 you quoted, this is nothing unusual. Doing the will of the Father certainly assure heaven. But it does not say here that doing the will of the Father is the only way to get to heaven. Pretending to be believer does not get to heaven, some who say ‘Lord’ ‘Lord’ may not get there because they are evil motives. In Mathew 25: 34 – 40, it seems like a clear example for a person who never heard about Jesus or Muhammad or even being religious, going to heaven by being righteous (because ‘…whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ to the question ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’)
On the other hand, if you look at John 6:40, it also says that ‘…it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life’. So, having faith is also a Father’s will. There are other saying by Jesus (John 12:32 ‘when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself’), John 6:35 ‘I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.’, etc. which also supports the logic I originally wrote. John 14: 11 – 15, ‘Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me’, to ‘If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it’. John 10:30 ‘I and the Father are One’, etc. adds more support to that line of thought. Yes, Jesus also said in John 10:15 ‘If ye love me, keep my commandments.’ I have read objections by Zakir Naik and other on these passages, but all of them are misreading it. A typical example of this misreading : John 14: 16 ‘And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever’. I have seen this Comforter being equated to Muhammad. The Greek word there is παράκλητος, Paraclete, for Comforter. Muslims say, para, the same kind, should imply a man like Jesus, and it has to be Muhammad. They ignore other parts of the verse ‘abiding for ever’, or even the meaning of παράκλητος itself.
At the end, I see my own internal moral system telling me exactly the same things as many of the religious rules. So, this is where I have problems. Jesus and Paul at least introduced the idea of belief for the forgiveness of sins, Jews, the concept of one God, etc. so this is nothing new from Islam. So I am not sure what original rules and thoughts these modern religions going back to Islam has added to the then existing moral codes or the understanding of any of the Grant mysteries (for example, from religions such as Zoroastrianism). I am not being critical of Islam, but I do not really understand the uniqueness or the special original attributes of Islam.
Hanaan Bint Hashim, I like you said – light and force. Suratul Noor is good, I like. But I dont explain evrthing. Can you tell more explanation. So I can talk to friends about. Need help.
Hello Lomira,
I will be glad to help u!:)) ..
But let me know what exactly you would like to know about light.
I am glad to share my knowledge about Quran and science to anyone,so u keen ask me any doubts
Regards
Hanaan
Please read NOOR Nama to know about the evolution of Universe.
Sorry everyone for going off topic…
Allegra, please send any further discourse to my email mkschmidt30@hotmail.com
Dear Qutubuddin – I vill.
Dear Hanaan,
Thanx u a lot. Most impot. 24:35 – “His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east (i.e. neither it gets sun-rays only in the morning) nor of the west (i.e. nor it gets sun-rays only in the afternoon, but it is exposed to the sun all day long), whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills.”
What is the glass and tree mean? Glass is very bright – but tree is under sun all day. Know not why need sun whn a star is hanging on tree. What is the sun? Light upon light mean sun and star light? Also, so strong light, but not all can see. Allah only leads few who Allah wills, the others are not?
Light never stops – moves always. Allah is like that, always moving? Or Allah not light, but the lamp? Then what is light?
This is very difficult to understand and tell others. Thanx for all ur help.
Huge regards.
Lomira
Mike, I will send you an email, you can respond to that. Or we can continue to post in this sister thread
So that others can probably read, or even respond.
In any case, I seriously doubt you or I will change our general stand, no matter how long we talk. There are so many uncertainties in every religious doctrines and their history, and given enough effort one can make it all look like compatible for some people, while others can try to poke holes in the doctrine; and none of these can be proven. I take all religions with a skeptical filter, however, I have respect to the Christian logic and the character of Buddist/Bahai people. I respect your refined attitude, and I wish the entire Muslim and all other religious population were like you. So, please proceed whichever way you like, as long as you do not expect any immediate conclusion.
Regards.
Mike,
I sent am email to you few days ago, I hope you received it. I am posting this since I have not heard from you.
It is too bad to see this discussion come to an end. I was really enjoying the debate between Mike and Allegra. Not many people are posting here, and this forum does not even have an owner. So posting those discussion here would have been OK. Too bad Mike decided to stop the debate.
Interesting. Just happened to read this thread.
Hi Hannan Bint Hashim
Did you say every religion will praise islam? Isn’t that an extreme hope to have. They cannot have their own belief, they should follow your belief because YOU THINK (you don’t need any proof) that YOUR religion is the right one. If they argue, you think they are blabber – but what you say is RIGHT. Compared to all the people posted here, to me you seem to have an extreme view.
“If u cant comprehend the infiniteness of allah , how can you comprehend the infiniteness of creator if you cant divide infinity into 2/3, how can you believe in his trinity/? where is all mathematcians,scientists in his oneness.”
You can divide infinity into 2/3, or 1/3, or whatever else. I think I read someone with your name in India creating a big media hoax or whatever (on absolute zero temperature or something like that)? If that is you, I am not sure what to think about Islam and misrepresentation or exaggerations of background and theories (or a good religious person should at least come up with a clean explanation to clear all the existing misinformation about that person). Just asking, I do not know all the facts.
Dear Vladimir,
SpotON! This Hanaan is that HANAAN, the biggest media Hype of 2009! well she got what she want! the Name and Fame with international travel! Once to Qatar and twice to US!
Well, she utilized every available people and resource… later on people realized her and with-drawn all their support! I am sure she is now realized her mistakes!
Why I write all this on this blog? very simple, I have been keeping an eye on her, and I see her commenting on Islam! What is the intention???? what is her academical attainment in Islam?? In my observation, she is very clever in making references! just refer the points from library books or using the latest technology (NET)….
Otherwise just an average student of Grade 10, yet to appear the board exams!
Regards, APJ
I have gone through the previous comments, but I dont understand why people are always obsessed over religion.
Study all the religion and take good concept and leave the mistakes present in it. You dont have to be an American to taste a american made chocolate.
Quantum physics says certain things which are not mentioned directly in quran or bible or anyother scriptures. Quran says allah is the creator but quantum physics says its conciousness that controls everything and its present in each and every particle irrespective of their size(micro or nano or whatever)- that means all are originated from one and that one is conciousness which is present everywhere. Therefore from the above, everything is nothing but a god. But quran and bible doesnt accept that.
About 100 years ago science says all this worlds are made up of 74 primary elements from periodic table. But now scientist says all 74 elements are just a combination of single atom and electrons…etc.,
That means all are made up of one, but the world what we see is unreal and its merely our experience(through perception). If you had cows eye, you perception of world will be different.
I have done some research regarding this, the only religion which comes close(not entirely) is Hinduism.
It explains
1.Conciousness- The supreme god and the one and only.
2.Maya- The unreality of world and our perception towards them. The world is just our projection.
3.The concept of infinity and zero
4.The world nothing but a mere combination of conciousness which is closely witnessing.
5.God is subject for experience- but not for vision, taste, hearing, smelling etc.,
6.There is nothing really like good or bad/evil, its a maya created by mind.
7.There is no such thing called hell or heaven. God is not some kind of judge to decide whether you will go to hell or heaven.
8.If everything’s created out of him/by him, how could it betray god.
9.Avidya- Ignorance makes this world real. If you remove it there’s no such thing as object but merely a combination of conciousness. Then you will see god in everything.
10.Wherever the conciousness(god) is present, there manifest a pure energy.
11.Why energy is a partof god?? Because one doesnt have birth and death, the one which cannot be created or destroyed is God.
And so on and on….
I welcome explanations but not critics.. thank you.
Hi ,
What u said about hinduism, let me clarify certain things here , Since i am one of them.
Hinduism is not a religion, yes you heard me right its not a religion. i will explain why ?
Second Hinduism is actually known as SANATAN , but Arabic people who invaded India , Specifically Muslims called its Hindu as It was near Indus River and that time the India includes Afghanistan , Pakistan and other places.If u recall there is a Mountain Range in Afghanistan which is known as Hindu Kush .
Now coming back to my earlier point, As per Hinduism or SANATAN , Hinduism is a why of living its a philosophy in itself.As you all know it is the oldest religion in world which is in existence.
Know why it is said a philosophy is because –
1. It has evolved with course of time.
2. It has seen everything virtually everything including Patience , War etc.
3. It has different divisions and thousands or millions of god and goddess.
4. So i will put as something which is Tried and tasted with time.
5. This is the only religion which have Women as goddess sometime more than men god. That is unfortunate that people used it in wrong way, in terms of treatment of women , but that was way past.
Coming to Muslims –
Muslim was a religion built on Blood.Consider is this why , Terrorist or so called Radical Islamist , Say what ever they are doing in Palestine , USA ( 9/11) is because US or other nation did the same with them.
I would like to ask the same Terrorist what if India start doing the same with you , and cite the reason that Mughals murdered Millions of Hindu for 800 years , You killed people like Butchers , You destroyed temples , even Universities like Nalanda which was one of the oldest university in World as per record.
What if we Nuke you out and Justify that we took revenge.
India Went into 1971 war with Bangladesh just because there were more than 80 0000, hindu’s killed there by pakistani army , So india intrepputed and check history pakis surrendered in less than a week. 90000 POW of Pakistan was captured. If india wanted we could have traded anything for 90000 Paki Army.
My only request to Muslim friends are think Logically , Think from your mind before you do something.
What is Japan says to US that since you nuked us in WW2 , we would always hate you , Know Japanese are US one of best allies.
Things Changes with time and So do people.
One last thing ..
I believe My Parents are Above God to me , At least this is what Hinduism Teaches us , That your MOM and Dad are your actually and first god.
Many a time i disobey them because i dont think that way.If they say me today to go and Bomb few people should i ? No not at all . Same lies with God if one exist!
I cannot kill anybody if my conscience doesn’t allows me just because god said ?
Thank you very much for the opportunity to address your issues. No critical intentions here, don’t worry.
In my humble opinion the main culprit for reaching dead ends is the fact that people don’t put firm boundaries between the two notions: Creator and creation. There is something called The Unique, Almighty Omniscient Creator, Omnipresent only by knowledge and means of knowing, who designed the whole Universe (with all that is seen and unseen by us, known and unknown to us) in stages, from will to word (The Tables Kept, or Lauh el mahfouz), to a 2D sketch, followed by a Multiple Dimensions maquette. “The Headquarters” of the Creator, who is not subjected to space and time, some coordinates that are themselves created, is the Paradise, the eternal place where there is no time. With your permission, I shall continue after I get some sleep. I haven’t slept for more than 24 hours. Ramadan Karim everybody
please try this site before comment.. The exact same words like conciousness, bliss, maya, projection, illuminations, unreality, etc, are used in Hindu scriptures.
This video is to show the some concepts said in hinduism.
This is not my video, I strongly discredit the critics about islamism.
There are some concepts which present in quran may not be present in others. Try to follow good things which mentioned in various scriptures and lead a happy life..
Hinduism is based on String theory and Islam, Judaism on Quantum theory that is the difference, ISLAM SAYS EVERY THING IS GOD’S and HINDUISM SAYS EVERY THING IS GOD.
But according Quantum physics, everything is counciousness(everything is god) which quran wont allow or accept.
Conciousness is nothing but a god(saguna brahman) who is the substratum for all.
The three qualities of Brahman(sat-sit-anada) are Existence-conciousness-bliss. Brahman is present everywhere b’cuz conciouness present everywhere. The main two forms of God are manifesting God(saguna brahman) through objects and unmanifesting god(Nirguna brahman). Everybody mistakes that Hindus worship the object, but its not true. They are worshipping the subject(conciousness) in the object(idol worship, cow worship, etc., Idea behing the idol) because human mind unless tuned through meditation cannot comprehend the infinite brahman, (believe me I’m a doctor, whatever you think will come under space and time).
Here’s an example for you to understand this concept: (though its not exact example)
All electronic objects like fan, TV works on electricity. The TV doesnt know the concept of electric current, but it rendered useless when power is not there. So here the subject is electric current(conciousness) and the object is TV. When it comes to object, it has certain rules to be followed like periodic services, not throwing any hard objects onit etc., Agan if you apply above concept the subject is brahman and we are all(including animals, trees, world, stars, planets etc.,) objects. Thus god is manifesting in everything but he remain unaffected( even if TV breaks nothing will happen to electric current)
Thank you for reply.I’m obliged to clear your doubts.
@a-theist
Simple logic …
Why does God need to be in his own creation?
When Man makes a mp3 player does he exist within it?
Man only writes a user’s manual to explain how it works and what you can do and should not do with it for using it correctly.
Similarly Allah made this universe, even us and gave us a manual (Quran) on what we can and should not do to live correctly.
Proudly,
Servant of Allah.
@a-theist
Simple logic Why does God need to be in his own creation?
When Man makes a mp3 player does he exist within it?
Man only writes a user’s manual to explain how it works and what you can do and should not do with it for using it correctly.
Similarly Allah made this universe, even us and gave us a manual (Quran) on what we can and should not do to live correctly.
Proudly,
Servant of Allah.
TO MAKE IT WORK…thats funny..the same simple logic applies here…
let see.. you created mp3, fine.. is it working automatically without your operation??
upanishad says ‘having created, he entered’
you are not only creating, but on working on it…
dont you understand the concept of omnipresent..??
man never create anything in reality.. do u know that?… man uses metal, electric current, plasticsetc., to make mp3 player…
question no1: where does the main/primary elements come from??
metal-from earth(which you cannot create)
electricity- you are converting one energy to another in an equalent amount..can u create energy??
the one which you cannot create or destroy is god??
who is inner ruler of earth, metal, electricity??
is no one there?? is it working automatically??
hence, you never create/make anything, because everything is already there…
i would like quote bhagawat gita here..
Whatever has happened, has happened Good
Whatever is happening, is happening Good
Whatever will happen in the future, will happen Good
What did you loose?
Why do you cry?
What did you bring to loose?
What did you create to go as waste?
Whatever you took, you took it from here
Whatever you gave, you gave it here
Whatever is yours today will be someone else’s tomorrow
Another day it will be somebody else’s
This is the rule of the World..
BUDDY PLEASE COME OUT OF RELIGIOUS VIEW..IT HAS GOT ITS OWN PURPOSE.. YOU HAVE MISTAKEN..RISE ABOVE RELIGION..
‘RELIGION IS MY TRUTH; BUT PHILOSOPHY IS TRUTH FOR ALL’
I AM A DEVOUT MUSLIM THAT FOLLOWS QURAN. I JUST CAME ON HERE TO INFORM YOU GUYS THAT THIS DOCUMENTARY ISN’T BASED ON PROOF OF GOD BUT PROOF THAT WE ARE GODS. RESEARCH THE BACKGROUND OF THE CREATORS OF THE MOVIE AND RAMTHA (ONE OF THE SPEAKERS IN THE MOVIE). AS MUCH AS I REJECT THE IDEAS OF THE CREATORS AND RAMTHA THAT GOD IS JUST AN ILLUSION WE HAVE CREATED, I LOVE THE MESSAGE IN THIS MOVIE THAT OUR CONSCIOUSNESS CREATES OUR REALITY AND THAT WE HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER REALITY THAN WE THINK. AND THAT EVEN GOD HIMSELF HAS CREATED SUCH A BEAUTIFUL MECHANISM OF THE MIND TO ALLOW US TO BE ALMOST DIVINE (BUT NOT GOD-LIKE, OF COURSE HE IS AL-AHAD) WHERE WE REJECT ALL COMMON FORMS OF IDEOLOGIES OF GRAVITY, TIME, SPACE, ETC. SO IF WE WERE TO APPLY THE QUANTUM THEORY AS THIS DOCUMENTARY ENTAILS, THEN BREAKING THE BRAIN BARRIER OVER CONSCIOUSNESS WILL RESULT IN MAN’S ABILITY TO TRAVEL THRU TIME (ESPECIALLY SINCE TIME IS NOT LINEAR), FLY (AS GRAVITY IS STILL REALLY ONLY A THEORY), SUPERPOSITION (BE IN TWO PLACES AT ONCE AS QUANTUM HAS SHOWN IN MOLECULES), TELEPATHY/TELEKINESIS, ETC. IT MAKES SENSE THAT SINCE WE ONLY USE 8% OF OUR BRAINS, WE ARE SO LIMITED IN FUNCTION. NOW IMAGINE THAT WE WERE ABLE TO ACCESS THE OTHER SEGMENTS OF OUR BRAIN, WHERE CONSCIOUSNESS NO LONGER IS CONTROLLED BY THE BRAIN BUT EXISTS OUTSIDE OF IT. SCIENCE HAS PROVEN THAT OUR MIND IS CAPABLE OF THIS BUT WE ARE SO CONSTRAINED BY THE IDEA OF LIMITATION, THE IDEA THAT WE ARE JUST A BODY WITH PARTS THAT MOVES AND REACTS AS A RESULT OF STIMULI FROM NEUROCHEMICALS AND PEPTIDES IN THE BRAIN. I ALWAYS KNEW THAT GOD ENTITLED US TO BE MORE THAN THAT. HE GAVE US THE POTENTIAL TO BE SUPERBEINGS AND ATTAIN ENLIGHTENMENT. IN THE QURAN HE URGES US TO USE THE MIND THAT IS GIVEN TO EXPAND OUR INTELLIGENCES. BUT EXTREMISTS IN ISLAM (AS MOST RELIGIONS) ARE DOGMATIC AND FEAR THE IDEA THAT WE CAN BE SUPERBEINGS (EVEN THO WE COULD NEVER BE GODS). NOTE THAT I SAY EXTREMISTS AND NOT ISLAM ITSELF. IT’S NOT BLASPHEMOUS AND IN FACT, ISLAM IS ALL ABOUT US INCREASING OUR POTENTIAL. ISLAM CONSTANTLY ENCOURAGES US TO DENY THE MATERIALISTIC WORLD AND BECOME SPIRITUAL BEINGS. ISLAM ALSO SPEAKS OF ALTERNATE REALITIES AND UNIVERSES AND THAT THERE ARE OTHER BEINGS AMONG US, SUCH AS JINN. IT ALSO RELATES THE STORY OF JESUS WHO GAINED ENLIGHTENMENT AND WAS ABLE TO LEAVE HIS BODY AND ASCEND TO HEAVEN (WHICH CAN ALSO BE KNOWN AS ANOTHER UNIVERSE/REALITY). THE CLOSEST WE’VE EVER HAD AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE IS WHEN WE DREAM. IT IS WHEN WE DREAM THAT OUR SOUL (OR CONSCIOUSNESS) LEAVES OUR BODY AND IS ABLE TO TRANSCEND SPACE, TIME, AND UNIVERSES. IT’S WHY WE EXPERIENCE DEJA VU (BY ENTERING THE FUTURE). IT’S HOW WE SOMETIMES ENCOUNTER THE DECEASED (BY ENTERING DIFFERENT REALMS IN SPACE). IT’S HOW WE’RE ABLE TO FLOAT/FLY/BE EVERWHERE (BY BREAKING THE LAW OF GRAVITY). IT’S NOT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT GOD HAS GIVEN US THIS GIFT. HE IS GIVING US A GLIMPSE OF WHAT OUR TRUE NATURE IS. IT’S NOT A BODY AND A BRAIN. ITS NOT FLESH AND BONES. IT’S NOT AN IDEA, CHARACTER, RACE OR GENDER. ITS AN EXTENSION OF HIM. HIS BEAUTY AND PERFECTION. BY GIVING US THIS GLIMPSE, HE GIVES US THE CHANCE TO POSSIBLY FIGURE OUT WHY WE’RE HERE AND GIVE US AN ALTERNATE PARADIGM ABOUT OUR REALITY. OUR REALITY ISN’T CARS, MONEY, DEGREES, HOUSES AND STATUS. IT’S HIM AND US. IT’S THE NON-MATERIALISTIC: LOVE, HONOR, DEVOTION, JOY AND PEACE. IT’S CONCEPTUALISM NOT MATERIALISM. THESE EXIST IN A DIFFERENT REALM AND THIS IS WHY OUR MINDS HAVE TROUBLE ACCESSING THEM, WE’RE TO BUSY STUCK IN THIS REALM, IN THIS REALITY TO FULLY REALIZE THESE CONCEPTS AND THEIR MEANINGS. THIS REALITY WITH ALL ITS DISTRACTIONS CAUSES US TO EASILY FORGET HIM AND WHAT HE REPRESENTS: LOVE, HONOR, DEVOTION, JOY AND PEACE. I REJECT ALL MAN MADE THINGS (ESPECIALLY HADITH, LOOK UP ITS HISTORY AND YOU WILL LEARN ITS CONTROVERSY AND THE REASON WHY ISLAM TODAY IS NO LONGER THE ISLAM THAT WAS FOLLOWED BY PROPHET MOHAMMAD AND THE PEOPLE OF HIS TIME). HOPEFULLY QUANTUM PHYSICS WILL OPEN DOORS FOR BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE QURAN AND WHAT HUMANITY NEEDS TO IN ORDER TO COEXIST. JAZAK’ALLAH. AMEEN, ANNA.
Assalamalykum,
Your comment is wonderful and inspirational.
Jazak Allah
hats off buddy.. you are the only one who really paid attention and understood the concept what i was exactly trying to say..
Hindus are never restricted to a small circle of hell and heaven, and other dogmatic concepts..
i hereby ask all muslims to come out of circle and try to raise up beyond human level..
hats of buddy, you can be a disbeliever in Allah and happily live this life and wait to see the hear after.
to QUTUB:
who said I dont believe in allah???where did you get that idea???
I do believe in allah, but dont believe in islamism…
I do believe Jesus, father and holy spirit, but dont believe in christianity…
I do believe Lord shiva, vishnu, brahma, shakti and brahmam, but i dont believe hinduism….
get it??? you may use any name… but infinite god is one…
‘GOD IS INFINITE AND THERE ARE INFINITE WAYS TO REACH HIM’
Do you know that I have quran and studied fully!!!
Do you know that I have bible and studied fully!!!
have you ever seen any of hindu book…??
Before passing any comment please study bible and vedanta(especially advaita)…
This is a link to my wife’s short film called “Get to Know Me”, she has entered it into a competition and it has been accepted by a panel of judges. There are several $5000 prizes, as well as a grand prize of $20,000. Please watch and rate this film high and forward to anyone who you feel might be interested.
http://www.linktv.org/onechicago/films/title/asc/2
Thanks,
Mike
To Qutub
Have you visited the hereafter (not hear after)? You sound as if you are an expert on it. Where did you receive your info from? Easy guess? Quran? Your God (Allah) has given you and those of your thinking – truth-detecting powers. You are very special in the eyes of Allah. Does the sun shine on you and your kind only? You know what Allah is thinking? You know everything – The TRUTH. You are a very powerful human being because you have read the Quran. Well hats off to you buddy – and a happy life here after.
Shirk conscious
Alex
I didnt ask you to be a disbeliever of allah. Im just telling you to have an open mind and accept the varieties of life on planet earth and respect and treat them equally.
I will not suffer hereafter life, u know why??
cuz i accepted allah as almighty god..
the question is?? can you accept jesus and brahmam as almighty being??
If you dont according to our religion u will burn in hell or suffer hereafter!!!LOL
a-theist,
I agree with you that it’s important to have an open mind, and to treat all people with respect for their ideas and religions. However, you have to sort through all those ideas, and make some decisions. You can’t honestly believe that Allah is the Almighty God, and that Jesus is also the Almighty God. That’s called ‘hedging your bet’, and it doesn’t work in religion.
It works in Hinduism..
Our god is called ‘THAT’ because you cannot call him using names…
compare your size of mind with your house and compare with your area and compare with your state, country, continent, and finally planet earth and then our galaxy and universe..
you will come to know that finitude of your mind.
Im just trying to say that mind is finite and the words are nothing but a creation of mind. The nature of god is infinitesmal and absolute bliss. The opposite pairs of good and bad, girl and boy, right and wrong will persist as long as mind persist. How come the finite language created by finite mind, explain infinite god. Empirically not possible.
But the closest definition of god given in bhagawat geetha is
I am neither ego nor reason, I am neither mind nor thought,
I cannot be heard nor cast into words, nor by smell nor sight ever caught:
In light and wind I am not found, nor yet in earth and sky –
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no name, I have no life, I breathe no vital air,
No elements have moulded me, no bodily sheath is my lair:
I have no speech, no hands and feet, nor means of evolution –
Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss in dissolution.
I cast aside hatred and passion, I conquered delusion and greed;
No touch of pride caressed me, so envy never did breed:
Beyond all faiths, past reach of wealth, past freedom, past desire,
Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss is my attire.
Virtue and vice, or pleasure and pain are not my heritage,
Nor sacred texts, nor offerings, nor prayer, nor pilgrimage:
I am neither food, nor eating, nor yet the eater am I –
Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I.
I have no misgiving of death, no chasms of race divide me,
No parent ever called me child, no bond of birth ever tied me:
I am neither disciple nor master, I have no kin, no friend –
Consciousness and joy am I, and merging in Bliss is my end.
Neither knowable, knowledge, nor knower am I, formless is my form,
I dwell within the senses but they are not my home:
Ever serenely balanced, I am neither free nor bound –
Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss is where I’m found. etc.,
definition continues for about 200 pages. sorry I cannot type everything.
thats why we used the word ‘that’ to explain. sometimes they call it ‘brahmam’
our god contain no ‘ego’ and ‘thought’, so we are allowed to accept any kind of god because ‘he is in all and all is in him’
even if want to stay atheist, you are not going to get affected according our religion(exactly not religion but path) as long as you stay good and do your duty correctly.
I have no misgiving of death, no chasms of race divide me,
No parent ever called me child, no bond of birth ever tied me:
I am neither disciple nor master, I have no kin, no friend –
Consciousness and joy am I, and merging in Bliss is my end.
Neither knowable, knowledge, nor knower am I, formless is my form,
This is a follow up to Ayman’s reply to my comment.
Firstly I must say that your words are much deeper than all pro-religious comments here.
I do not understand how could you conclude with rationally investigation that the highest truth and reality is god. To my understanding religious belief is a faith in something physically not perceivable or testable in controlled environments. So what do you mean by rational investigation. I am totally at a loss to understand how do you proceed with reason and end up with god.
Further I do not understand what do you mean by truth and reality.
Concerning physical theories about the cosmos.. Let me make it clear that we are not religious about these theories (inflation models) or even about the quantum theory itself. Something better might replace it tomorrow. No theory can be proved only its predictions can be tested. And this is a business of its own.
So as I said the process is ongoing.
And its not true that Science doesn’t give you answers to Why questions. In fact one of the basis of science reason and logic. You can continue to ask this sequence of Why questions and at one point it stops. On the other hand in religion you don’t have to ask a sequence of Why’s perhaps one is required
cheers
Rohin
This is a follow up to Ayman’s reply to my comment.
Firstly I must say that your words are much deeper than all pro-religious comments here.
I do not understand how could you conclude with rationally investigation that the highest truth and reality is god. To my understanding religious belief is a faith in something physically not perceivable or testable in controlled environments. So what do you mean by rational investigation. I am totally at a loss to understand how do you proceed with reason and end up with god.
Further I do not understand what do you mean by truth and reality.
Concerning physical theories about the cosmos.. Let me make it clear that we are not religious about these theories (inflation models) or even about the quantum theory itself. Something better might replace it tomorrow. No theory can be proved only its predictions can be tested. And this is a business of its own.
So as I said the process is ongoing.
And its not true that Science doesn’t give you answers to Why questions. In fact one of the basis of science reason and logic. You can continue to ask this sequence of Why questions and at one point it stops. On the other hand in religion you don’t have to ask a sequence of Why’s perhaps one is required
cheers
Rohin
This video has stopped working, can you please put an updated link to this or through you tube?
Regards,
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I’ve read your article and I love physics myself. I also know of simple interpretations of Islam in the language of physics. I am not questioning the law itself, but the room for the interpretation and the reasons for faith.
And even when you use Kur’an to explain scientific data, you still have room for interpretation.
As saying God created Earth in two out of six days. And then saying Melek travels 1000 days of what we count, while it is a day for god. Then you look at the creation of the Earth and proportions between the age of the universe and the Earth and you get the proportions 1:3. Now the two days are a mere reference to the hidden proportion and not the meaning of 4.567 billion years.
Here, Islamic scholar would still be looking for a hidden meaning of the scripture given to him interpreting it, in order to fit it into a proven scientific theory. Also the scripture is still a scripture and as much as you can fit it’s parts in certain aspects of science, there are those you we can’t compare to science and prove as something definite (not just talking about realms of philosophy, but science as well), while having no actual proof for the validity of it’s origin in the end.
Meaning, you can compare parts to science trough interpretation, but how can you say that backs up anything else but your comparison?
Faith, means to believe in something without empirical evidence, regardless of said evidence being presentable or not.
Religion requires you to believe in Allah, one and only, before you start asking questions. And while Islam does not (which I agree on) discourage from learning and asking questions, it presents us with ideas without proof. At a certain point you are left without answers, you can seek your whole life and not find, and that’s where the faith takes charge.
But if you constantly ask questions. If you wish to learn and expand your mind. If you are willing to entertain ideas and learn by accepting or rejecting them, sooner or later, how can you ever hold onto the idea of Allah or any god (as specifically as described by religions)?
I am not saying that you are not looking for a way to reach god with science, like so many Eastern scholars trough history did. (I don’t know if you are) But how could you have already accepted the idea of God as something you definitely could find to be true, before actually finding it?
By accepting I do not mean presuming.
For example: Röntgen could have presumed X-reys existed, BEFORE he went onto researching his presumption in order to reject or accept the idea. He could have even cum up with the name. <-This is ok.
But he didn't go about building and preparing for the CT in it's concept familiar to us.
It applies to my view of religion. You (presumably) pray, go to a mosque, don't drink (which I agree with, but for non-religious reasons, you may as well), maybe you cover yourself if you are a woman, or you paint your nails as once suggested by the prophet, you may divide and control your assets as suggested by the Kur'an, you may not eat pork.
^ Here you apply one simple presumption. Kur'an is the true word of Allah. It all comes as an universal law you have to obey, study after accepting it and learn about, in order to lead a fulfilled and happy life and get into heaven. This should make you a Muslim as far as I've been familiarized.
But do you not as a scientist wish to learn, prove and test before you claim and apply?
To me, it seems as if being a scientist conflicts with being a Muslim. (Or follower of any dogmatic teaching.)
Thank you for replying if you do. ^^
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Allah is great
Muslims claim many scientific truths that were discovered recently were already mentioned in the Quran. Dr. Zakir (the fakir) Naik has a list of them and has convinced many Muslims of those claims.
Here is the claim made by Dr. Naik:
As far as Qur’an and modern Science is concerned, in the field of ‘Astronomy’, the Scientists, the Astronomers, a few decades earlier, they described, how the universe came into existence – They call it the ‘Big Bang’. And they said… ‘Initially there was one primary nebula, which later on it separated with a Big Bang, which gave rise to Galaxies, Stars, Sun and the Earth, we live in.’ This information is given in a nutshell in the Glorious Qur’an, in Surah Ambiya, Ch. 21, Verse No. 30, which says, “Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder?’ Imagine this information which we came to know recently, the Qur’an mentions 14 hundred years ago.
In his fervor to make the Quran look scientific Dr. Naik overlooks the fact that the theory of Big Bang precludes the concept of creation. If the Big Bang is true then the story of the creation and Adam and Eve must be false and vice versa.
Dr. Naik should have at least studied the theory of the Big Bang before commenting on it. The theory of the Big Bang stipulates that about 13.7 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the universe. Prior to that event all of the energy that was later transformed into matter was contained at one infinitely small point (not nebula). This explosion, not only gave birth to the particles that gave birth to the matter, but also to space and time.
The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundation for the universe. Therefore the notion of “separating the heaven and the earth” is absurd.
After the death of Tiamat her conqueror forms the heavens and the earth by cutting her body open “like a cockleshell” and lifting up one half to form the sky while leaving the bottom half as the earth:
“The lord rested; he gazed at the huge body, pondering how to use it, what to create from the dead carcass. He split it apart like a cockleshell; with the upper half he constructed the arc of sky, he pulled down the bar”. http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/worldview.html
So the verse 21:30 is not talking about the big bang. It is rehashing a biblical tale that in turn was borrowed from ancient mythology.
Now, let us discuss the origin of the verse 41.11. In this verse the Quran says, the sky was smoke and God said to it and the earth to “come together,” which they did willingly.
Of course, God talking to inanimate objects such as heavens and earth and telling them “come together willingly or unwillingly” and they responding, “we will come willingly,” is good for children’s stories. Heaven and earth are made of gasses and rocks. They don’t have a will and don’t respond.
Furthermore, the earth was never separated from sky/heaven. So they could not have come together.
Let me quote all the four verses that talk about his cosmic event.
41:9 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
41:10 He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
41:11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”
41:12 So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
Here we see Muhammad saying that the first thing God did was to create the Earth in two days. Then he set on it the mountains and plants and animals. All this took another four days. “Then”, i.e. in the last day, after all the above was already done, he erected the sky.
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء
This is not how the universe is formed. According to the above verses, the creation of the world starts with the creation of the Earth. Once the Earth is completed, it is filled with plants and animals, it is only then that Allah turns to the sky and lifts it up and adorns it with stars. Any school kid (not being fed with the Islamic nonsense) will tell you this is crazy.
The universe is estimated to be 13.7 billion years old. The Earth is only 4.5 billion years old. The first micro-organisms appeared 3.5 billion years ago. Although soft bodied creatures have appeared 3 billion years ago, the oldest animal fossil found is only 600 million years old. And we are just talking about “multi-celled” organisms such as sponge-like animals, cnidarians, and worms. The dinosaurs appeared in the Jurassic period, approximately 200 million years ago and became extinct over 60 million years ago. It is in these 60 million years that all the modern animals, birds and mammals have evolved.
When the universe was in gaseous form, i.e. over 13 billion years ago there was no earth and there were no creatures. The story of the evolution/creation given in the Quran is anachronistic and asinine. It has no resemblance to what science says. Every aspect of it is wrong. The verse 12 continues with this potty description of the creation. It says that He (Allah) completed them as seven firmaments in two Days. (Note how often Muhammad forgets that the Quran is supposed to be dictated by Allah and refers to its alleged author in third person).
What seven layers of heaven? There are no seven layers of heaven. This is fairytale. I explained this point here.
Then Muhammad says that Allah adorned the lower heaven with “lights” (stars), which is of course nonsense.
Similar tales can be found in the Bible and in the lore of the Sumerians, Babylonians and the Canaanites. These ancient people thought that the sky is made of seven layers pitched like a dome. The word اسْتوَى (erect, raise, stand, hoist, pitch) in this verse shows that Muhammad also thought, the sky is a dome that is pitched over the earth. In the verse 13.2 and 31.10 he even mentions that this sky is raised “without any pillars that ye can see”.
These are not scientific descriptions of the universe. They are based on the beliefs of primitive people about the universe. The word smoke in the verse 41:11 is not talking about the early state of the universe. It says before the dome of sky was raised, everything above the surface of the earth was like smoke. When the universe was a nebula the earth did not exist. It came to exist over nine billion years later.
The origin of this fable can be found in the myths of the Mesopotamians that I quoted already. When the great god Marduk, slew the serpent of the seas (Tiamat), he clove her body and hoisted the upper half as sky. He then firmly fixed the stars, arranging the constellations of the zodiac, and created the moon and set him as a creature of night, to make known the days monthly without failing”. (Note that Muhammad gave this very same answer when people asked him about the moon: “They ask you concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in the affairs of men, and for Pilgrimage 2.189). In this way Marduk brought order to the universe. Marduk created seven heavens, and stationed each god (planets revolving around the sun were believed to be gods) to his appropriate sphere. Before that everything was formless and in a state of chaos.
Furthermore, the earth is not separate from the universe. Galaxies are scattered everywhere. Each galaxy contains several hundred billion stars. Earth is a planet revolving around one of the stars in the Milky Way. Where is the separation between the heavens and the earth?
This is what the Qur’an says:
21:30, ‘The heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder’
This is wrong. Earth is not separate from heaven. It is, as it has always been, and will forever be, a part of it.
The Quran gives also another version of the creation – Verse 41.11.
“Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”
These two verses contradict each other. Were the heaven and the earth joined together and Allah clove them asunder or were they apart and Allah told them to come together?
Of course both claims are false. The earth is inside the heaven and part of it. They can neither come together nor separate. The Qur’an gives two contradictory versions of the creation and both of them are wrong.
But where does the tale of God separating heaven and earth comes from? Muhammad hardly said anything that was new. The verse 21:30 rehashes Genesis 1: 6-9
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
So if this explanation is a miracle, the credit should go to the Bible and not to the Qur’an. However, the origin of this tale dates back to pre-biblical stories of Babylonians and Mesopotamians.
The Qur’an is full of legends borrowed from the Bible. These in turn were based on the myths of ancient Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, etc. Muhammad’s cosmology is the cosmology of the ancient people.
In pre-Hebrew Semitic myth two watery tumultuous beings, one male and one female, Apsu (sweet water) and Tiamat (salt water) give birth to a variety of sea monsters and gods. In the ensuing chaos Tiamat, the female creator, tries to take control. Her descendants unite against her, choosing one of their numbers -Marduk, the god of Babylon to lead them. Armed with a hurricane and riding a tempest drawn by four fiery steeds, Marduk meets Tiamat and her evil accomplice Kingu in battle and kills them both.
The Big Bang Theory is just a theory. Unlike the theory of evolution, it has not been proven. An associate professor at the National Tsing Hua University in Taiwan has proposed a new model of explaining the Universe. According to expert Wun-Yi Shu, mass, time, and length, some of the most basic aspects of the Cosmos, can be converted into each other as evolution takes place within the Universe. The explanation removes the necessity of accounting for the ever-increasing acceleration in the Cosmos by using the notion of dark energy. He proposes, time and space can be converted into each other by using a basic conversion factor, and namely the speed of light. Similarly, mass and length can be converted into each other. According to this theory the expansion of the Universe makes time convert into space, whereas mass changes into length. When the Cosmos will begin to contract, the exact opposite will take place.
Based on this new theory, the universe expands and contracts indefinitely which precludes the Big Bang. If this theory is proven right Hindus could claim that their sacred scriptures is scientific.
Based on this model time has no beginning and no end, which means there is no moment of creation and the world will never come to an end. Also that singularities such as the Big Bang and the Big Crunch (Universal contraction) cannot and did not exist. Another effect is that the Universe passes through alternating stages of acceleration and deceleration, similar to the way Earth experiences alternative reversals of its magnetic poles.
Proud kufr
I don’t find your explanation sufficient about the seven heavens. Go look up google about mulitverse theory . Now scientists beliveve there are more than one universe one top of each other. The idea of one “uni”verse is not accepted anymore by most physicist . There are definitely seven universes on top of each other as it is said in the Quran. Crossing from one universe to the other would be a dimensional upgrade for example crossing from the third dimension to the fourth dimension. We really dont know how many dimensions we have to cross to get to the seventh heaven. It could be infinite . Allah is the creator of infinite dimensions. Anybody who is not the creator of the infinite is not the Allah we are talking about in the Quran. Allah is above his creation and above his throne . Allah is the creator and anything you talk or imagine is a creation. Science has never been or will be able to fathom anything about the creator . The description given about the creation of the heavens and earth in both the bible and Quran has been said in human language for us to understand in a simple way. What is two days , six days or eight days when there is no such thing as time beyond the fourth dimension. The time variation of 2 days can mean a billion years or 4 days could mean a trillion years . Time itself can go either way if Allah chooses . In reality there is no such thing as time or space. All particles in space has been in one unit and both time and space has been expanding ever since Allah said “be” . The same way Allah placed Adam on earth physically from out of nowhere , he could have placed Earth in the universe also. I really don’t know. Your brain or my brain is limited to human language we talk in, our knowledge of eternity is tiny speck of dust in a dessert compared to the reality of the eternity. Submission to Allah and believing in the oneness of Allah is the only way u will find solace and comfort in your heart. All of universe or multiverse can be anything but Allah is not in it . Allah is the one and only who is above it without a beginning or end . The universe. can expand or collapse or do whatever Allah wants it to do. Let scientists do what they have to do and discover whatever more they can but just know that the creator is not in any of his creation but way above it. You can combine your soul with whatever particle or wave or atom and become something extraordinary through meditation . You can also do quantum teleportation or send data through quantum entanglement but our reach will be only to the level or dimension Allah has given permission for.
Thank you
21:30, ‘The heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder’
Allah is saying that the heavens and the earth were together in one piece or one singularity . Everything were together before the expansion of the unveres and time started.
“Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come (together), in willing obedience.”
Here in this verse Allah is talking about particle and space . When referring to earth it means all the particles and smoke can be referred to as waves or energy of different forms. Thus confirming particle wave duality.
Quran was sent to refresh the other scriptures . The main purpose of the Quran was to establish the oneness of Allah . If the Quran repeats anything that has been sent before does not mean the Quran has been copied from the other older scriptures. If you use windows xp and then now use windows 7 does it mean that windows 7 is fake because it has similar features as windows xp. Both xp , vista and 7 have been made by Microsoft.
thanks for nice explanation to make clear about this topic since them who Already have wrong perception about islam wheather they had wrong information about islam or their heart already full of hate and darkness so cannot think right with clear mind and clean heart.
COULD I PLEASE GET A RESPONSE!??
The Quran and Islam invites us to think, to ponder and challenge our intellect..
In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people of intelligence: those who remember Allah standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: “Our Lord, You did not create this for nothing. Glory be to You! So guard us from the punishment of the Fire.” (Surah Ali-‘Imran: 190-191)
This also contained in Harun Yahya’s Website..
Another matter in the Qur’an that could be interpreted as the expansion of the universe, which was discovered in the late 1920s. Hubble’s discovery of the red shift in the spectrum of starlight is revealed in the Qur’an as :
It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)
Now, to add the Original bit that I hope to keep very short and simple this time.
An explanation of Optics and Astronomy and Quranic Relevance in Light of Science
Naturally all of us mortal beings possess a sense of sight. Our God given ability, Vision; is made possible by the existence and availability of light with the help of our eyes.
Different species of animals have varying visual abilities or capacities. Some animals have a blurry vision, others sharper or some colour blind. Nocturnal creatures are able to see better at night, or in the absence of plentiful sunlight.
All these mores are essentially the natural mode of vision, Optical. They all rely on the presence of light to make possible.
Surah Mulk (The Kingdom)[67 : 3] Who created the seven heavens, one above the other. You cannot see any inconsistency in the creation of the Merciful. Return your gaze, do you see any crack!
[67 : 4] Then return your gaze once more and yet again, your gaze comes back to you dazzled, and tired.
In the verse from the Quran above, It would be a tricky play at words for one to begin to grasp a seemingly impossible notion that involves the sending and receiving of a ‘gaze’ meaning ones sight, view.
How is it possible?
Here is how. Elementary. First we should accept that it does not refer to the literal meaning or perhaps it does.
When I was in my first year of Advanced level High School in 2005, I was taught during Physics class, a chapter on Electromagnetic Radiation and its applications.
It was quite interesting to note how the world of electromagnetic radiation facilitates so many daily activities and phenomena and also how vast it is. Using EMRs we are able to understand more and more of our expanding Universe and some of its not so secret secrets.
Light, Visible light itself is an EMR only it is part of the spectrum that is visible to the naked human eye. As you move towards either extremes of the EMR spectrum, the radiations become invisible. Common radiations are such as Infrared, Ultraviolet radiation, Black light, or even the common ‘Blue tooth’ bandwidth used in many digital devices. X-rays and Gamma rays are also part of the EMR spectrum and are invisible and powerful.
These properties possessed are unique and enable each bandwidth of radiation to be used for specific applications and functions.
Back again to the point.. EMRs help us to understand our Universe.
Let’s go back again to Optics and the use of natural or artificial light to enable us to ‘SEE’
We all know or at least I assume we all know how this is possible. But what about seeing at night? What about Night Vision Goggles? Heat sensing and Thermal imaging? Picks up heat in the form of infrared radiation instead of visible light, essentially though it still enables us to ‘see’ or visualize an object or its presence.
Now we can all agree that light isn’t the only thing that allows us to SEE. EMR rather, REALLY enable us to SEE and picture an area, locating and identifying objects in a given distance.
EMRs allow us to see even what we can’t see without the help of visible light! In other words, to see more than just what is ‘visible’ in light. We are able to identify and locate things in total darkness, or even objects that TRAP light. This is one of the reasons why EMRs are used to study the Universe.
One part of the quest is complete by the fact that EMRs help do all this, and that we have discovered this and use this. How do we do it though? And what about the other important question.. ‘How far is the object’?
Again, to answer the question of distance EMRs are instrumental. A basic understanding or concept of the way they are used follows below:
*Assuming of course for all readers, advanced level of high school physics attained.*
(This makes probably means that this Note is R18 Strictly! Haha)
Since we are dealing with EMRs here I will skip the basic concept of waves and the Doppler Effect straight into the Doppler Effect in Light and EMR where the holy grail, this revelation lies.
*Incomplete*
In the limit where the speed of the wave is much greater than the relative speed of the source and observer (this is often the case with electromagnetic waves, e.g. light), the relationship between observed frequency f and emitted frequency f0 is given by:
Observed frequency Change in frequency
where
is the velocity of the source relative to the receiver: it is positive when the source and the receiver are moving away from each other.
is the speed of wave (e.g. 3×108 m/s for electromagnetic waves travelling in a vacuum)
is the wavelength of the transmitted wave in the reference frame of the source.
These two equations are only accurate to a first order approximation. However, they work reasonably well when the speed between the source and receiver is slow relative to the speed of the waves involved.
*Incomplete*
Recall the Ayat of the Quran we wish to link to recent Science..
Surah Mulk (The Kingdom)
[67 : 3] Who created the seven heavens, one above the other. You cannot see any inconsistency in the creation of the Merciful. Return your gaze, do you see any crack!
[67 : 4] Then return your gaze once more and yet again, your gaze comes back to you dazzled, and tired.
Aha! ‘dazzled and TIRED’! A tired gaze??
We have just confirmed that our gaze is an EMR such as light, and now.. Edwin Hubble’s postulation below.
Tired light was an idea that came about due to the observation made by Edwin Hubble that distant galaxies have redshifts proportional to their distance. Redshift is a shift in the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation toward lower energies and frequencies, usually attributed to recessional velocity. Before Hubble’s observations, all observed redshifts were attributable directly to a mechanism similar to the Doppler Effect.
In these situations, objects moving away from us exhibit a shift toward the red end of the optical spectrum while objects moving toward us exhibit a shift toward the blue end (blueshift). Hubble and other scientists observing the redshifts associated with distant galaxies attributed their redshifts to motion away from us. Bizarrely, the relation held in all directions and so could not be attributed to normal movement with respect to a background which would show redshifts and blueshifts. Everything was moving away.
Immediately upon publishing these results, Willem de Sitter who was working with Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity recognized that these observations fit with a particular solution to the Einstein equations now known as the FRW metric. This solution explains that distant objects are observed with greater wavelengths than were emitted by the objects because they are moving with an expansion of the universe. In this formulation, there was still an analogous effect to the Doppler Effect, though relative velocities are not really well-defined for such situations.
Not everyone accepted this interpretation immediately. General relativity was notoriously difficult to understand and many of the astronomers were skeptical that this was the only possible explanation. Some, like Edward Milne proposed that there was a giant explosion that could explain redshifts (see Milne universe). Others thought that there might be systematic effects that made the observation suspect. Along this line, Fritz Zwicky proposed a “tired light” mechanism in 1929.
Zwicky suggested that photons might slowly lose energy as they travel vast distances through a static universe by interaction with matter or other photons, or by some novel physical mechanism. Since a decrease in energy corresponds to an increase in light’s wavelength, this effect would produce a redshift in spectral lines that increase proportionally with the distance of the source. The term “tired light” was coined by Richard Tolman in the early 1930s as a way to refer to this idea.
—Wikipedia Copyright
Alas! The expansion of the Universe explained, by a theory ALSO included in the Noble Quraan.
Light travels across the universe, constantly attenuating and as it is analysed its properties have altered i.e. frequency and apparent wavelength (Red shift/ Blue shifts) denoting Tired light.
Muhammad’s Flat Earth
According to the Quran, Earth is flat. Can the maker of the earth be ignorant about its shape?
Check this out on youtube
hahaha… islam was against quantum physics, it was supporting certainity, not uncertainity. Now just becoz quantum theory is proved right these ppl are changing quran to match quantum physics. This is not good guys…
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I have a question given all the arguments about god or allah in arabic is allah consious?
allah as described here seems to be more of an anwser in other word not a god of the gaps but a description of the underlying workings of the universe in other word an ancient description of a theory that will one day describe everything if this is true then why all the rules in islam? Because the arguement made here seems to be that allah is an anwser to be sought not a being to be worshiped if however the original intention of islam was for humanity to worship knowledge to seek the anwser with religious fevor then well i have to say i am in complete agreement but here is where islam and science deverge science has and will be used to further enlighten the mind were as islam and most religions for that matter seem to do nothing but restrict the mind into believing that only certain things are correct such as if allah is in deed the true anwser to everything then why must women do the things they are restricted to to cover their hair to do all manner of these things i wont go into details because to be honest i dont know all the rules involved nor do i care to because they are meer trivialites if god or allah is the one true anwser and to worship him(stand in term) is to seek him to learn of him then i would say that the only ones who are truly in god or allah’s favor are the ones who are doing this scientists philosopers and the ones who make this possible teachers inventers and the list could go on because what would allah need of our worship to bow down an face mecca throughout the day what would he gain from this in all honesty this brings me to one of 2 conclusions that god or allah is vain and needs an audience or that we are worshiping in the wrong way for to truly be in his favor we must learn truth(stand in for science) teach it to others and have it taught to us which is what science does and through our own misunderstanding of how to worship we have imposed a plethora of useless rules that serve only to limit us in our worship(the aquisition and passing of knowledge) so in truth god or allah is a great idea but islam or any other religion is not
I see your point, but there are some things you are not considering. Firstly, as I have mentioned several times on this forum, no one has been able to explain exactly WHY quantum physics proves the existence of God, and more specifically, the Islamic concept of God. I believe in God, and I am a Muslim, but the logical argument based on Quantum Physics has not been explained adequately.
Second, your understanding of the rules in Islam is based on only a partial understanding of the religion. The rules are not there to hinder us, or make God feel better about himself.
The rules are there for our benefit. If we choose to follow them, it is only beneficial for our own selves. If we choose to ignore them, it I only t our hurt.
hi everybody,
Well i am a christian,born in country with large hindu followers and size able Muslim population along with significant no.of followers of other religion.So basically i belong to india and have been exposed and brought upon in healthy religious environment with more or less knowledge about major religions and AlSO science.
I noticed,its ironic though good that this latest science discovery(quantum double slit experiment & conclusions) have found many takers in major religions.It is accepted and acknowledged as some sort of vindication for their claim on the lines of “this we have been saying all along,you didnt paid attention.”and each religion claim predatation from all others.
I am amused by this claim of exclusivity from all sects which eventually does turn into questions of which one is better,higher,holier,older etc.My point is that this claim should be in reverse order,religiousts should be grateful that science came along and shed light on us as science was born out of questioning the prevalent,discarding belief which is antethesis of all religions.
Genuinely no matter if someone doesn’t know after that its up to other users that they will help, so here it takes place.|